Help!
The magic chapter has only an unhelpful paragraph to describe Necromancy as a spell school. How do a Cleric's undead minions work? Can anyone provide a link to some online rules?
For example...
How does the Cleric actually control undead minions? Verbal commands? Telepathically? Is line of effect required? Is there a distance limitation? Does the allowable precision of commands depend upon the Intelligence score of the undead, or having a shared language, or whether the creature was intelligent vs. animal before it died?
Do undead minions earn EXP if they somehow survive that long? If so, do they gain a fair share as a PC or is it like the Leadership feat where they do not "use up" a share of earned EXP? If so, do minions without class levels gain Fighter levels or something else?
Can intelligent undead minions act stubborn? I can "command" my 3-year-old to go brush his teeth and know it will happen but it might take a few extra minutes if he is in a rebellious mood. Can intelligent undead minions similarly avoid prompt obedience?
Can the Cleric move an undead minion like a puppet on a string? For example, assume the Cleric has a great sense of rhythm but the minion does not (and never did when alive). Can the Cleric control the minion playing a drum set to play with great rhythm?
As a more specific question...
Can the spell Animate Dead create a Magus Zombie or a Zombie Lord? The spell Lesser Animate Dead implies that normal Animate Dead can create variant zombies. The spell Create Undead implies that that normal Animate Dead cannot create Juju Zombies or Skeletal Champions. Does that mean Animate Dead can create a Magus Zombie or a Zombie Lord? Or the spell cannot because those should be on the Create Undead list but are missing for reasons of history about when that list and Classic Horrors Revisited were published?
Best guess: Create Undead is probably what you're after for the Zombie Lord template. It seems a little out of reach for Animate Dead because most intelligent undead in the bestiaries are created by Create Undead or its greater variant.
How does the Cleric actually control undead minions? Verbal commands? Telepathically? Is line of effect required? Is there a distance limitation?
In my last game, I played a wizard necromancer that always kept one unintelligent undead pet around. I gave him simple verbal commands that he obeyed in the most straightforward manner until I gave him a new command. All of the general "verbal rules" applied.
Do undead minions earn EXP if they somehow survive that long?
No. The only possible exception to this would be if you took the Leadership Feat, and took an intelligent undead as your cohort. That is something you would definitely have to discuss with your GM first.
Can intelligent undead minions act stubborn?
Yes and No. The greatest benefit of having an intelligent minion is that they'll act... well... intelligently. Unfortunately, this cannot simply be turned off when it may be advantageous. Intelligent creatures (based on their intelligence and your GM) will always try to carry out your commands in the most advantageous/most rewarding/least risky way possible. This may not always be fast enough, or direct enough to please you.
Can the Cleric move an undead minion like a puppet on a string?
Probably not. You would need a very indulgent GM.
So, to check my understanding I'll try to summarize and then ask a few new questions...
(1) Undead minions do not interact with EXP.
(1b) If you want an undead minion to gain EXP, use the Leadership feat with GM approval.
But why? Even Xykon knows that his second-in-command should not be an undead minion.
(2) Undead minions are controlled vocally.
(2a) Unintelligent undead minions understand and follow simple commands, probably as described in the Command Undead SPELL. They are not puppets: they follow commands as best they can, not as best their controller can.
This is more than enough for combat purposes. Even a Druid's animal companion does not have this amount of comprehension of vocal commands!
(2b) Intelligent undead minions follow commands "in the most advantageous/most rewarding/least risky way possible". This is potentially like those stories of tricky genies granting the "wrong" wishes.
(3) Intelligent undead minions are a pain in the tuchas for another reason: they resent the Command Undead FEAT and get a new saving throw each day.
(3b) To create a combat minion, the unintelligent Relentless Zombie seems best anyway. Compared to a Zombie Lord it has better obedience, it still has +2 BAB and +2 DEX, and it gains movement speed, climb speed, scent, and Quick Strikes. It does lack +4 Channel Resistance and retaining skills, but those probably matter less for combat.
(4) The intelligent zombie templates (Magus Zombie, Zombie Lord) probably should be part of the Create Undead spell, along side the Skeletal Champion they reference.
It seems a small matter what a DM decides for this fourth point. A necromancer probably knows Create Undead by the time he or she fights an enemy spellcaster worth zombifying. For any other zombification that Relentless Zombie seems optimal anyway.
New questions:
Can unintelligent undead minions that were formerly intelligent creatures talk? Do they remember their past lives?
Can a Cleric voluntarily release control of an undead minion? For example, perhaps he wants to give one to a friend, but does not want those opposed Charisma checks after the friend uses the Command Undead feat.
Does control stop while the Cleric is sleeping, knocked out, etc.?
If an undead minion completes the only task it is given, does it stand idly? Lie down and look like a corpse? Take out a hackey sack and make a pitiful attempt to entertain itself?
2b I think that should be INTELLIGENT undead do so.
Oops. Cut-and-paste typo. Fixed now. Thanks!
Even the fast/relentless zombies only get 2 attacks with full attack. Skeletons get as many as their hit die would allow.
Where is that rule limited zombie attacks?
Tangentially, here is my draft of a backstory for a Legacy of Fire PC. I now know that my use of an Animate Dead scroll either needs fixing or the Juju Oracle's deity changed the spell on one occasion for plot reasons. ;-)
Curse: Lame (Speed 20)
Traits: Missionary, Duskwalker Agent
First-level feat: Extra Revelation for Undead Servitude
Gnat's parents were merchants whose caravan was attacked by Gnolls. They killed her parents and took her as a slave. As part of a ritual dedicated her to Lamashtu they broke her left leg, whose bones healed poorly. (She still limps.) "We'll make you into a monster" the Gnolls taunted. Gnat fell unconscious and had a strange dream she remembers vaguely, full of verdant light, the glory of the hope of reincarnation, and a soft yet firm voice that repeated over and over, "No, Lamashtu. She is already mine."
Her days as a Gnoll slave were dreadful. But adventurers rescued her from the Gnolls before the Gnolls could mistreat her in worse ways. With no family left locally she was sold as a slave to a Nightstall businessman, a "locksmith" named Twyla who also worked as a Duskwalker. A few months later Gnat spontaneously cast Endure Elements when she and Twyla were suffering an especially hot afteroon. "You're a Sorcerer!" Twyla explained. "Good. Now we know you'll have a future."
About a month later Gnat, walking through the Nightstalls with her master while on patrol, passed the small wooden building that was Unc' Ted's shop.
Unc' Ted was a third-level cleric of Abadar who had in the past angered some of the socially prominent priests of Abadar in Katapesh and now avoided the nice parts of the city. He ran a business both loathed and respected in the Nightstalls named Unc' Ted's Undead. His main source of income was offering a deal to the many impoverished gladiators and brawlers who fought in the city's many arenas and cage fight bars: he would pay their family or another beneficiary 30 gp if they would agree to let him use Lesser Animate Dead on them after they died to make them a skeleton or zombie (their choice) to fight a bit more. Many accepted the offer. It would help relatives, especially if debt collectors would be after those relatives next. Unc' Ted was shunned as a necromancer, but also shown some respect for treating even the deceased fairly (that 30 gp was half the 60 gp cost of a second-level spell, so half his pay for selling the skeleton or zombie to the arena or bar). As Unc' Ted's business became established the gladiators' peers began to feel it was an honor to be selected to fight these undead "for their family's sake" and would treat the opportunity almost reverently. When business was slow Unc' Ted fell back onto his other source of income: buying the corpses of large local beasts (usually hyenas) and turning them into zombies for the larger arenas. One especially large zombie hyena he named Bowser and kept as a guard animal for his show.
The local clerics of Sarenrae frowned but did not disrupt trade. There was nothing they could legally do as long as Unc' Ted made only a few undead at a time, kept all of them undead firmly controlled until they were killed, and never let them hurt innocents.
Gnat felt pity for the two zombies she saw through the shop's barred window. "They are even more lame than I," she sighed. Suddenly the zombies were still. They stared back at Gnat. They wept.
Unc' Ted opened his shop door. Bowser playfully ran to Gnat and offered her a piece of wood to play fetch. Unc' Ted soon verified that all three were under Gnat's control now, not his.
"She's a born necromancer," Unc' Ted told Twyla. "Sell her to me."
"You're a scary person," Twyla replied. "No. Children should not play with dead things."
"It's the dead things that want to play with her," corrected Unc' Ted. "Please. Or you keep her and fuss with her room and board, but let her study with me two days each week. Otherwise, eventually, a pet will die, or a friend, and...something will happen."
So for the last year Gnat has been the shared slave of Twyla and Unc' Ted, who never became any more fond of each other. She was eventually given her own Duskwalker patrol, since the sight of her riding on Bowser at least gives pause to miscreant activity. She helped Unc' Ted manage his zombies.
One morning Unc' Ted felt inspired (by a dream? he was never sure) to ask Gnat to use a scroll of Animate Dead. He gingerly set it on the table and began lecturing to her.
"This scroll has the spell Animate Dead. Normally I cast Lesser Animate Dead. But this is the real thing. It can create variant skeletons and zombies, except those two variants that need the grandpapa of these spells, which is Create Undead.
"This scroll cost a year's standard wages. That's why you have not seen them here before. But we can make a profit if we make a strong variant that an arena will buy for more than the scroll's cost. So our goal is to create a Relentless Zombie. Those are big, fast, climb very well, and track with scent. The arenas would love that.
"Today's corpse is a cage fighter and thug named Beldg. But for now, go review those two books about zombie variants. I want you to read the scoll. I'll help. I've taught you how to use Read Magic. We'll do that first. Then I'll help you activate the scroll, to make sure we have no mishap."
After lunch Gnat exceeded Unc' Ted's expectations and turned Beldg into a Zombie Lord: a big, strong, intelligent variant zombie who retained his old memories and skills (but not feats). Beldg immediately dropped to his knees. He moaned and wept. "Oh, the things I have done! How can I be forgiven?" He insisted on being escorted to the nearest church of Sarenrae.
"Hold!" barked the Paladin guarding the church entrance. "We have kept our distance, Unc' Ted. Why do you come here with an abomination? Go in peace, quickly."
To Gnat, the rest of the afternoon seemed to crawl. Clerics, Paladins, and Inquisitors kept checking Beldg's alignment. It was certainly Lawful Good, contrary to his prior life. Beldg kept moaning and crying. He recounted dozens of crimes in which he had been involved, lamenting that he could not very well approach orphans and widows as a zombie to beg forgiveness or make recompense. "It is like Speak with Dead but he won't shut up," complained one novice Cleric. Twyla was summoned to keep Gnat company and be interviewed. Eventually a senior Cleric cast Commune. Then Gnat was brought in and given a Ring of Spell Storing with a second copy of Commune.
"Use the ring," she was told. She did, and a glowing presence filled the room.
"Who are you?" asked the senior Cleric.
The presence laughed merrily. "Is not the spell caster supposed to ask the questions?" it mused. But I am willing to be more helpful than required. The girl is my Oracle. She is my Lawful Good necromancer. Her intelligent zombies will always share our alignment. Her unintelligent zombies will always be neutral. If she ever lets them do evil she will know my discipline.
"Beldg is mine too. He will be reincarnated after his time as a zombie. Let him repent as best he can so his next life will be better.
"My Oracles learn to charm creatures. Use this to do good. Those charmed will appear as dead, to remind everyone your life is ephemeral and not really your own."
"The girl should leave Katapesh. What Beldg has shared will anger many powerful villains. This city is not safe for her now. Let her travel to a place where forced necromantic repentance is not so...political. May I suggest she join some adventurers going into Gnoll territory?"
(2b) Intelligent undead minions follow commands "in the most advantageous/most rewarding/least risky way possible".What are you quoting? AFAIK you're wrong.
I was quoting The Crusader above (second reply to original post).
I am a bit confused where folks are getting their information. Legacy from 3.5? People are answering my questions as if quoting established rules rather than saying "In my campaign..." or "When I GM...".
Well, the rules for command undead feat are the rules for the control undead spell ... they just mention control, everything else is DM fiat. In my opinion if the intention was to have a subversive follower the spell would have said so ... but that's just me, ask your DM.
Yes. But part of the ambiguity discussed above is whether Animate Dead grants an identical type of control to the Command Undead Feat.
It may be that undead minions a Cleric creates obey him or her differently than undead minions that Cleric forcibly takes over.
If so, it prompts a new question. Can a Cleric use the Command Undead Feat on undead that he himself created, to change the quality of control?
I think the rules for creating the various undead types are covered in Undead revisited, that includes the Juju Zombie. I don't have it to hand but I think you need Create Undead and the Energy Drain spells.
Ah! I see part of my confusion. Most zombies and skeletons have no Intelligence score. So they are mindless, not just unintelligent.
I still think flavor-wise that when controlled they should inherit some minor habits of the Cleric. For example, a slothful Cleric would control mindless undead that just stand around when awaiting orders, while those controlled by a hyper Cleric would twiddle their thumbs and make other small fidgety motions.
I like the flavor of undead taking on the habits of their creator/controller.
But as for the type of undead you can make, as per the rules in the CRB (not using other sources) Animate Dead can make skeletons and zombies (and their mindless variants) out of any corporeal creature with a skeleton, Create Undead can make only the listed undead (Ghoul [CR1], Ghast [CR3], Mummy [CR5], and Mohrg [CR8]), and Create Greater Undead can only create the listed undead (Shadow [CR3], Wraith [CR5], Spectre [CR7], Devourer [CR11]).
That said, without knowing what other sources might say on the matter, I can see no reason why you couldn't advance the HD of any of these creatures within reasonable limits (4x CL for Animate Dead/Control Undead/Command Undead combined, +CL for the Control Undead feat), or why you could not create equivalent CR undead with these spells.
If you use the spell to make equivalent CR undead, though, I'd note the key differences between these spells, as I see them:
-Animate Dead only creates mindless undead creatures.
-Create Undead can make intelligent undead, but they are all corporeal and have no spells or SLAs.
-Create Greater Undead can create intelligent incorporeal undead with SLAs.
Furthermore, while unintelligent undead theorhetically know at least one language you know, controlled unintelligent undead might not. In either case, you can still reasonably expect to be able to give basic verbal or nonverbal commands such as "come here", "stop", "fight target X", etc.
As to your new questions:
Mindless undead shouldn't remember their lives, period.
Intelligent undead probably won't remember their lives, but certain types might (see the specter).
Voluntarily releasing undead would be equitable to dismissing a spell, so why not?
Control here IMO simply implies that they don't do anything of significance of their own volition unless directed otherwise. That, combined with the fact that all necromancers would likely be killed in their sleep if it ceased when they were unconcious, and I'd lean towards "as long as you're living/unliving, they are under your control."
And given the above, they just stand idle. (Though I still like your idea of adopting the controller's habits. Very flavorful and easy to include with little secondary effect.)
Oh, and I have to say, my favorite undead for Animate Dead is the Bloody Skeleton. Their ability to regenerate even from a pile of gory bones means that you won't just be going through undead.
And I see no Reason you couldn't use additional castings of Animate Dead (or the other spells) to increase the HD (and BAB, etc., but not the size or base stats) of undead that you have already created by paying the difference. It hardly seems game-breaking to me, even if it isn't strictly RAW.
If you use the spell to make equivalent CR undead, though, I'd note the key differences between these spells, as I see them:
-Animate Dead only creates mindless undead creatures.
-Create Undead can make intelligent undead, but they are all corporeal and have no spells or SLAs.
-Create Greater Undead can create intelligent incorporeal undead with SLAs.
Ah! Great summary. I am not familiar enough with Pathfinder monsters to have noticed those patterns.
Changing the subject slightly, most Pathfinder PCs notice a jump in power at levels 7 and 10. For that Juju Oracle character I described above, those jumps have different timing and behave like this:
Level 1 - Can use the Command Undead feat to take over undead she meets
Level 4 - Learns Lesser Animate Dead, can create her own plain zombies
Level 6 - Learns Animate Dead, can create Relentless Zombies
Level 10 - Learns the Juju Oracle specific version of Create Undead, can create Zombie Lords
A bit sad she can't create her own minions until fourth level, but I'm sure that for the first three levels the GM will be nice and either provide some for her to take over or have her find a few scrolls of Lesser Animate Dead among the treasure.
I had a similar question as to exactly how complex a command an "unintelligent" undead understand and execute effectively.
Can you overload it with too much info or are they like computers, only as good as the information they have received, regardless of how much/how complex it is?
A command like: "Wait here three hours then head due north until you see a cottage with a blue roof, go around to the back and get three red apples out of a barrel, then meet me at the Clumsy Lion Inn in Westport-town-ville." is contingent on the undead understanding several abstract concepts, being able to tell time, see colors and tell which way is north and have a familiarity with the local geography.
I guess I am asking what the upper limit on Undead comprehension skills is...
I guess I am asking what the upper limit on Undead comprehension skills is...
The Animate Dead spell gives only rough guidelines.
First, it says "This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies that obey your spoken commands." (Had I read that carefully the first time, I would not have asked some of my original questions!)
Then it says, apparently to provide some examples of valid spoken commands, "The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place."
So they do have some discernment. Is this their discernment or the Cleric's? The spell text does not say. For example, an zombie orc that had never seen halflings might (back when alive) mistake halflings for young humans. If the Cleric knew that difference well, would the zombie orc?
They are mindless, not just unintelligent. They are like robots, not pet dogs. So they clearly cannot figure anything out. But it is vague whether the Cleric can "implant" within orders details as complex as how to travel to Westport-town-ville.
I'm not sure where the grey line is. To me directions to the nearest town seems way to detailed. But "open the door on the right" or "open the red door" seem intuitively allowable. I'm cannot explain why.
Hm. Perhaps I am subconsciously assuming anything immediately observable is fair to include in orders? I have a hunch I am considering the verbalization to be a "verbal component" and not somehow comprehended by a mindless creature. So when the Cleric says "the red door" about a door he sees, the mental command is incredibly clear and while reaching the minion somehow ties together the Cleric's desire and what the minion itself sees. But when he says "the red door in the castle at Eastmarch" the Cleric is relying on a memory of what the door looks like and the minion has no reference whatsoever.
And I see no Reason you couldn't use additional castings of Animate Dead (or the other spells) to increase the HD (and BAB, etc., but not the size or base stats) of undead that you have already created by paying the difference. It hardly seems game-breaking to me, even if it isn't strictly RAW.
What do you mean "paying the difference"? Using up spells that day casting Animate Dead and using up the 25 gp per HD onyx material components?
I expect it would be game-breaking. Consider if my Juju Oracle learned the feat Undead Master. She could have two enormous minions. Using the Command Undead feat the HD limit would be (level + 4). Using the Animate Dead spell the HD limit would be (6 x level). The former is perhaps game-breaking, but the GM could simply avoid having the party encounter an undead so powerful that her controlling it would be too helpful. The latter definitely is game-breaking if she can simply re-cast Animate Dead until the minion reaches maximal HD!
I would really appreciate hearing about if anyone has game play experience with house rules encouraging "fewer minions (or only one), each with more HD" adventuring parties versus "more minions, each with less HD". How can this be done well? I would love to help combat go quickly by having fewer minions, but do not want to gimp my character. Thanks!
Okay, the Legacy of Fire campaign starts this weekend and my current draft of the Juju Oracle PC is here.
What would you do with this character? What would you change?
The other party members are a Paladin of Saranrae, an archer Ranger, a Kirin Pather (Lore Warden / Many Styles Monk), and a buffer Diviner Wizard.
My PC's roles in the party are healer, trap disabler, Bluff and Sense Motive to compliment the Paladin as the party "face", and combat support for the three melee allies.
Ability scores were rolled with dice, so please no comments about point buy alternatives.
Command Undead seems a wimpy feat at first level, but I can't be a naturally talented necromancer while also waiting for fourth level to be able to cast Lesser Animate Dead! The zombie "pet" was a gift but in game terms costs 85 starting gp because of the fee for hiring an NPC to cast a second level spell (10 x 3 CL x 2 spell level) plus the 25 gp material component.