Damage dice...

[Rick Hart]

On page 302 of the Bestiary 1, there is a table showing the damage that natural attacks would deal, based on size. This is very useful for determining what damage dice to move up to in the event that a creatures size increases, or if someone casts a strongjaw spell (APG 247) on a creature.

Is this intended as a maximum cap on creature damage? A quick flick through the APG would seem to indicate that there are many creatures that go beyond this table, so the answer is apparently no. So what is the next step? Based upon the progression, I suspect that the next 4 damage sets should either be 4d8, 6d6, 6d8, 8d6... or 4d8, 8d6, 8d8, 16d6. I prefer the first, I think. However, a former Wizards employee has told me that the old rule was that if you would go above 4 dice, you simply move the dice category up one step instead, giving a 3rd option - 4d8, 4d10, 4d12, 4d20.

Which do you think is most likely?

I ask because by using the druids wild shape ability, combined with animal growth and the strong jaw spell, it is entirely possible to get to that 4d20 mark. The Hippopotamus, Behemoth, is listed as a huge animal. By wildshaping into the giant hippo, then casting animal growth and strong jaw, you get a ridiculous 4d20+grab attack. A Megafauna, Arsinoitherium, can even go beyond this if you wildshape into a huge version initially (the ruling on this is something that has previously been discussed on these forums with no official answer beyond 'check with your DM'). How much damage would this do?!?

[Drejk]

Improved Natural Attack feat lists increased damage up to 12d6. I don't think that anything managed to go farther than that but I am sure that resident power gamers prove me wrong.

[vip00]

Drejk wrote:

Improved Natural Attack feat lists increased damage up to 12d6. I don't think that anything managed to go farther than that but I am sure that resident power gamers prove me wrong.

+1. That list is pretty comprehensive, the few corner cases that go beyond it are worth discussing on a case by case basis.

[Tharkon]

It might be an old thread but since nobody mentioned it and I don't want people finding this getting the wrong idea:

A: A druid using wildshape does not become an animal so is not a legal target for animal growth.

B: Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.

Still, Improved Natural Attack and Strong Jaw would give you that 4d20 if you follow that list. However, while Strong Jaw and Improved Natural Attack conflict on this issue, they agree you should never use d20's.

Damage dice:
INA: 1d1, 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6, 16d6, 24d6
Jaw: 1d1, 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 2d8, 4d6, 4d8, 8d6, 8d8, 16d6, 16d8.
INA --------------- alternative track: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8, 16d8.

Average damage:
INA: 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3.5, 4.5, 7, 10.5, 14.0, 21, 28, 42, 56, 84
Jaw: 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3.5, 4.5, 7, 09.0, 14.0, 18, 28, 36, 56, 72
INA ------ alternative track: 5.5, 09.0, 13.5, 18, 27, 36, 54, 72

Strong Jaw seems to uses d6's unless you happen to start at d10. In all cases the general idea is that 2 size changes doubles the damage. The d6's seem to be about 16% more powerful, but are probably favored because most people have more d6's.

In your case the 4d8 would become 6d8 because of INA first and then Strong Jaw would turn that into 12d8. If you somehow got Strong Jaw before you got INA then you would go fom 4d8 to 8d8 and then to 16d6.

[Claxon]

Actually there is a new FAQ about damage dice progression:

Quote:

Size Changes, Effective Size Changes, and Damage Dice Progression: I'm confused by how to increase and decrease manufactured and natural weapon damage dice when the weapon's size or effective size changes. There's a bunch of different charts, and I'm not sure which to use.

When the damage dealt by a creature’s weapons or natural attacks changes due to a change in its size (or the size of its weapon), use the following rules to determine the new damage.

• If the size increases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and increase the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Small or lower (or is treated as Small or lower) or the initial damage is 1d6 or less, instead increase the damage by one step.
• If the size decreases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and decrease the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Medium or lower (or is treated as Medium or lower) or the initial damage is 1d8 or less, instead decrease the damage by one step.
• If the exact number of original dice is not found on this chart, apply the following before adjusting the damage dice. If the damage is a number of d6, find the next lowest number of d6 on the chart and use that number of d8 as the original damage value (for example, 10d6 would instead be treated as 8d8). If the damage is a number of d8, find the next highest number of d8 on the chart and use that number of d6 as the original damage value (for example, 5d8 would instead be treated as 6d6). Once you have the new damage value, adjust by the number of steps noted above.
• If the die type is not referenced on this chart, apply the following rules before adjusting the damage dice. 2d4 counts as 1d8 on the chart, 3d4 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d4. 1d12 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d12.
• Finally, 2d10 increases to 4d8 and decreases to 2d8, regardless of the initial size, and so on for higher numbers of d10.

Damage Dice Progression Chart
1
1d2
1d3
1d4
1d6
1d8
1d10
2d6
2d8
3d6
3d8
4d6
4d8
6d6
6d8
8d6
8d8
12d6
12d8
16d6