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From Borders Seeks Possible Bankruptcy Financing:
"But the credit line is contingent on several conditions, including Borders getting another $125 million of financing, which would come from publishers forgiving payments or other lenders."
Would Paizo accept promissory notes from Borders if asked?
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I don't think Paizo sells directly to Borders (or anyone other than their direct customers through their webstore). Paizo sells to a distributor, then the distributor sells to Borders (and Amazon, BAM, B&N, etc.). I doubt this would directly affect Paizo, at least in the sense that they wouldn't receive any kind of promissory note.
WotC, on the other hand, does sell direct.....
-Skeld
CEO
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I don't think Paizo sells directly to Borders (or anyone other than their direct customers through their webstore). Paizo sells to a distributor, then the distributor sells to Borders (and Amazon, BAM, B&N, etc.). I doubt this would directly affect Paizo, at least in the sense that they wouldn't receive any kind of promissory note.
WotC, on the other hand, does sell direct.....
-Skeld
This is correct, we sell to Borders through Diamond Book Distributors. However, WotC also sells through somebody else. Random House handles their book trade distro.
-Lisa
Moot point, but why forgive Borders their bad decisions?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Moot point, but why forgive Borders their bad decisions?
Because the options for a creditor of Borders (including a distributor) look something like this:
1. Take $0.50 on the dollar to allow Borders to get credit and stay out of (or successfully pass through) bankruptcy.
2. Risk Borders going into bankruptcy because they can't get credit, and receive less than $0.50 per dollar in bankruptcy.
The $0.50 is entirely pulled out of thin air, but those are the parameters of the business decision. Whether or not Borders made a bad decision is irrelevant from the perspective of preserving (or collecting upon) bad debt.
You know, given that book store chains have screwed publishers over regularly with their practices--open five stores in a market stacked with discounted books until you drive the local independent stores out of business, then consolidate down to two to three stores once you have control of that market and rip the covers off of all the paperbacks you ordered for the extra stores you were using to drive out your competition--I don't feel that much sympathy for them relative to the independent bookstores.
Which is not to say I invariably love all independent bookstores, but I feel more sympathy for them than giant conglomerates.
It's not, IIRC, forgiving them their bad decisions--it's forgiving them some or all of what they owed Diamond for Paizo products.
Of which inability to pay that debt it based on their poor business decisions.
Whether or not Borders made a bad decision is irrelevant from the perspective of preserving (or collecting upon) bad debt.
Valid point. Thank you.
I'm moving this thread out of Paizo General because, even though it was addressed to us, we have zero input on what Diamond and other book distributors choose to do about Borders.
I hope they last long enough to fill my order for Bestiary 2 that I made today. The total with tax was $22.94, that's 56 shares of stock.
As a long time customer and former employee, I am sad. Once upon a time, they were SO much better than B&N. They used to have the best bookstores in the area. Half-Price Books long ago surpassed them, however, and sadly now even B&N is better is most cases.
Agreed, it's very unfortunate. Even with it's flaws I still buy 80% of my books at the local Borders, and I'd have to drive a long way to find another store with a comparable Manga selection.
Plus, their coffee is still the best, and I'm not looking forward to the possibility of not being able to get a Javanilla shake.
Having worked at a Borders for the past two years, I know that there's enough wrong with them to not really be sad to see them (or much of the publishing industry) go down in flames. As for the SBC, that's owned by Starbucks and will be around for a while, whether Borders survives or not. Finding places that will still make Javanilla Shakes, however, might prove difficult, but even in the worst case scenarios, I'm sure you could readily find any number of disgruntled former baristas who will clue you in on the exact recipe details for making one of those. *wink*wink*
Yeah, I've talked to the staff at my local Borders and they've been quite open with their gripes over the last few years.
Talking to them reminds me of my own experiences at a shop where the managers drove everyone crazy shuffling people around and introducing "new and improved" processes, trying to find some magic combination that would boost production enough to save them from the cost-cutting axe. After I changed departments twice and seats three times within two months in the name of "improving synergy and streamlining flow" my morale was as low as it's ever been, and I arranged a transfer ASAP.
I can see the same thing every time I go into a Borders. Notice how the staff keeps having to move the bookshelves around? Or how the Rewards program keeps changing?
Dammit, the oldest Borders in Dallas, one of the three near me, which used to be one of the biggest and best, is closing. Sad -- great location. I guess the B&N that opened across the street a couple of years back spelled their doom.
Dammit, the oldest Borders in Dallas, one of the three near me, which used to be one of the biggest and best, is closing. Sad -- great location. I guess the B&N that opened across the street a couple of years back spelled their doom.
I know how you feel- I'm losing the one on Park Avenue. Real ritzy joint, but was very approachable, had no problem with the kids(heh. I'm calling them kids now. Must be getting old!) reading the manga and generally hanging out on a Saturday afternoon. I'll miss that place.
Suck it! My Borders is staying open (for now). I'll just keep redeeming these 40% off coupons a long as I can.
I was given a virtual ghettowedgie! Waa! ::Sucks thumb and hugs latest box of 40% off minis bought from store that's to close::
At least there will be two Borders left near me.
Awesome, looks like my local Borders is staying open as well.
And it looks like Diamond is delivering to them again, I saw new manga and picked up the Beastiary 2 there over the weekend.
I know how you feel- I'm losing the one on Park Avenue. Real ritzy joint, but was very approachable, had no problem with the kids(heh. I'm calling them kids now. Must be getting old!) reading the manga and generally hanging out on a Saturday afternoon. I'll miss that place.
Wait a minute, I'm not finding one on Park Avenue. What's the address?
Wait a minute, I'm not finding one on Park Avenue. What's the address?I know how you feel- I'm losing the one on Park Avenue. Real ritzy joint, but was very approachable, had no problem with the kids(heh. I'm calling them kids now. Must be getting old!) reading the manga and generally hanging out on a Saturday afternoon. I'll miss that place.
Uh...I think it says Manhattan for city instead of New York City- it SHOULD be towards the top of the second page or so?
It looks like two of the three Borders near me are closing down - I feel bad for the folks this is going to affect.
I haven't seen any news yet of what's going to happen to the Waldenbooks stores - I would imagine there will be another 'culling' like in 2009. I hope the store I used to work at avoids the chopping block if it can... :(
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
Uh...I think it says Manhattan for city instead of New York City- it SHOULD be towards the top of the second page or so?Wait a minute, I'm not finding one on Park Avenue. What's the address?I know how you feel- I'm losing the one on Park Avenue. Real ritzy joint, but was very approachable, had no problem with the kids(heh. I'm calling them kids now. Must be getting old!) reading the manga and generally hanging out on a Saturday afternoon. I'll miss that place.
Oh, Manhattan! I bought two boxes of minis at the location! :D
A list of the Borders stores to be closed under the Chapter 11 filing.
Thanks for that link I was wondering if I'd lose my local Borders, but I'm glad to see it isn't part of the closures. I guess I'll just keep using my 40% off coupons until they shut the lights off for good.
Oh, Manhattan! I bought two boxes of minis at the location! :DUh...I think it says Manhattan for city instead of New York City- it SHOULD be towards the top of the second page or so?Wait a minute, I'm not finding one on Park Avenue. What's the address?I know how you feel- I'm losing the one on Park Avenue. Real ritzy joint, but was very approachable, had no problem with the kids(heh. I'm calling them kids now. Must be getting old!) reading the manga and generally hanging out on a Saturday afternoon. I'll miss that place.
DOOD!!! Why didn't you tell me you were in town?!?!?! We coulda gone to the Strat!!!!
I used to go to the Park Ave location in Manhattan quite a bit myself. That hurts almost as much as the Barnes and Noble at Lincoln Square closing.
Personally, it always strikes me as a little sad when a bookstore of any size closes.
You know, given that book store chains have screwed publishers over regularly with their practices--open five stores in a market stacked with discounted books until you drive the local independent stores out of business, then consolidate down to two to three stores once you have control of that market and rip the covers off of all the paperbacks you ordered for the extra stores you were using to drive out your competition--I don't feel that much sympathy for them relative to the independent bookstores.
Which is not to say I invariably love all independent bookstores, but I feel more sympathy for them than giant conglomerates.
I don't know much about the book industry so I may be asking a silly question. What does ripping the cover off of a paperback accomplish?
I don't know much about the book industry so I may be asking a silly question. What does ripping the cover off of a paperback accomplish?You know, given that book store chains have screwed publishers over regularly with their practices--open five stores in a market stacked with discounted books until you drive the local independent stores out of business, then consolidate down to two to three stores once you have control of that market and rip the covers off of all the paperbacks you ordered for the extra stores you were using to drive out your competition--I don't feel that much sympathy for them relative to the independent bookstores.
Which is not to say I invariably love all independent bookstores, but I feel more sympathy for them than giant conglomerates.
The store is returning the book to the publisher for credit, but the publisher doesn't want the actually book back. It does however want prove that the book is destroyed, so they return the cover only.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I don't know much about the book industry so I may be asking a silly question. What does ripping the cover off of a paperback accomplish?The store is returning the book to the publisher for credit, but the publisher doesn't want the actually book back. It does however want prove that the book is destroyed, so they return the cover only.
Publishers can opt to require whole copy returns, where the entire book must be returned in salable condition for credit. It costs us a little more, but Paizo usually does that—unlike many mass-market publishers, we know that though one retailer can't seem to sell one of our books, a different one would be happy to. In fact, a lot of our returns never actually get back to us—Diamond is usually able to redistribute them to their other accounts.
Publishers can opt to require whole copy returns, where the entire book must be returned in salable condition for credit. It costs us a little more, but Paizo usually does that—unlike many mass-market publishers, we know that though one retailer can't seem to sell one of our books, a different one would be happy to. In fact, a lot of our returns never actually get back to us—Diamond is usually able to redistribute them to their other accounts.I don't know much about the book industry so I may be asking a silly question. What does ripping the cover off of a paperback accomplish?The store is returning the book to the publisher for credit, but the publisher doesn't want the actually book back. It does however want prove that the book is destroyed, so they return the cover only.
The rip-the-cover off contracts are usually for mass market paperbacks. I'm betting unless you've worked in the industry it is hard to imagine how huge mass really means. To the point where the publishing company doesn't want them back, it would cost too much to store. Those are print runs that are several magnitudes larger than Paizo's biggest print run.
Anyone crazy enough to do the math and figure out the mass and volume for a million copies of a Stephen King novel?
Also, that scanned borders closure list is terrible. A much easier to search list is here. Looks like the two closest to me are staying open. I'm surprised the Mission Veijo one gets enough business.
The same thing is used in the comic industry. Individual comics are cheap enough that there's no way the distributor wants to pay freight for them. Rip off the covers and have done.
==Aelryinth
I used to go to the Park Ave location in Manhattan quite a bit myself. That hurts almost as much as the Barnes and Noble at Lincoln Square closing.
Personally, it always strikes me as a little sad when a bookstore of any size closes.
This. It's like a little branch of Christmas being closed. :(
Also, that scanned borders closure list is terrible. A much easier to search list is here. Looks like the two closest to me are staying open. I'm surprised the Mission Veijo one gets enough business.
Thanks, Deinol, it's much easier to read. And this list confirms why a friend told me that of the three stores very close to me, where I have shopped regularly for years, two are closing. Crap. Three more in the area that I have occasionally shopped in are closing, for a total loss of 8.
Well, I can't say I'm surprised the Arborland store is closing. Of the three in town it is by far the worst. I'm just curious what will go in there in its place.
It is sad when bookstores close, but I'm guessing we'll just keep seeing more of that in the years ahead.
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Chief Technical Officer
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The same thing is used in the comic industry. Individual comics are cheap enough that there's no way the distributor wants to pay freight for them. Rip off the covers and have done.
==Aelryinth
Regular comic books also generally aren't available for reorder, so the publisher wouldn't have anything to do with them anyway.
Note that returnability generally only applies to bookstores—most comic shops and hobby shops buy their games and comics without returnability, taking a slightly better price instead.
All the Borders that I've been to in the past 7 years are closing. All of them. The one next door, the one near university, the one I met random people in that one time, the one I go to with my aunt around christmas, the one I duck into when I have a chance, the one next to my old apartment where I lived for those three years, the one next door to that job that didn't work out...
All of them.
I'm not kidding.
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Also, that scanned borders closure list is terrible. A much easier to search list is here. Looks like the two closest to me are staying open. I'm surprised the Mission Veijo one gets enough business.
I got it from Publisher's Weekly, but it was obviously an image scan of a fax (or similar lo-res original)--it was what I had, though.
So sad, NM.
JW, you shared what you had at the time, you did the right thing.
Lynora: Yep...the only way I'm comforting myself with losing the Borders of most of my life, plus the cool new Borders, is that the Borders that has the gamers is the one staying open. Sure would be nice if that store expanded with the other two closing down. Gamer karma?
I got it from Publisher's Weekly, but it was obviously an image scan of a fax (or similar lo-res original)--it was what I had, though.
Yeah, most of the news articles I have seen that bothered to link to a list used it. It's probably a scan of something sent to all the store managers.
As a borders rewards member I got an e-mail announcing the changes. The site it linked to has the above list.
....
I went tonight to the one near me for the final time. Kinda a bummer.
There was a line 1 hour long; people buying stuff for 20% off; 40% for magazines.
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I can see the same thing every time I go into a Borders. Notice how the staff keeps having to move the bookshelves around?
My Borders is one of the ones closing. For the last two years or so EVERY TIME I would go in there, about once a month or so, all the departments would be moved around. It was very frustrating trying to look for stuff when you did not know where to go. I told this to the manager more then once, But they kept doing it. No wonder they lost business.