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Here's the thing. I have a lvl 3 Elf Rogue in your standard Pathfinder Dungeon Crawler campaign. He has a dex mod of +4, and a str mod of +3. He's fairly well with getting rid of traps (trap spotter helps), and O.K. with sneaking.
Thing is, his damage isn't worth halfling barf. He gets a 4/4 as attack modifiers, and a +3/+1 on damage (Uses rapier & shortsword). Surprise rounds are unheard of to our DM, except when in the monster's favor, and I can never sneak behind an enemy because there's either 10 of them, their waiting behind a door, they heard my party members that are 70 feet behind me, or the orc poo that fell on my rogue (cleaned off though) gave my rogue away.
That being said, I need help on getting more damage output, since I can't do a whole lot in that department. Any help is very much appreciated.
Here's the thing. I have a lvl 3 Elf Rogue in your standard Pathfinder Dungeon Crawler campaign. He has a dex mod of +4, and a str mod of +3. He's fairly well with getting rid of traps (trap spotter helps), and O.K. with sneaking.
Thing is, his damage isn't worth halfling barf. He gets a 4/4 as attack modifiers, and a +3/+1 on damage (Uses rapier & shortsword). Surprise rounds are unheard of to our DM, except when in the monster's favor, and I can never sneak behind an enemy because there's either 10 of them, their waiting behind a door, they heard my party members that are 70 feet behind me, or the orc poo that fell on my rogue (cleaned off though) gave my rogue away.
That being said, I need help on getting more damage output, since I can't do a whole lot in that department. Any help is very much appreciated.
sounds like your dm doesn't want a rogue, ditch it for a fighter.
Thing is, we NEED a trap finder, and he told me that I need to be the rogue. And I got a fighter, but is a dwarf so he gets nowhere fast. Still, I need some help getting a better damage dealer.
i suggest investing in the Feint/Bluff tactic instead then.
Feint and bluff tactic? Explain please.
The Feint combat maneuver allows(among other things) sneak attacks vs your next attack. Improved feint makes it a move action, greater feint is a free. So in the long run you can be against a foe you aren't flanking, successfully feint, and sneak attack anyways. Note that until you get Greater you won't get a whole TWF volley vs. them, but eventually you will.
Oh, I see. Well, thats extremely helpful. Thank you! Also, would it be better to be proficient with the sawtooth sword than using the rapier and shortsword?
IMO (only my opinion) not really. your damage boosts will come from getting sneak attack off. The extra 1 point average from exotic weapon is a waste of a feat in my perspective. you would be better off stacking the deck for Feint with something like ...Skill Focus : Bluff.
Okay then. Thank you very much for your help. Have an internet cookie. *Hands one.*
There's also teamwork feats that allow you to flank without being in the normal flanking square. So that could be useful in the 'large numbers' situation in your first post.
if your rogue were not already constructed i would have made the following suggestions
Scout Archtype
Spring attack Chain
Dagger as primary weapon
here are my reasons for these suggestions.
a few major weaknesses among rogues are thier low defenses, in other words, thier low armor class, low hit points, low fortitude and will saves.
Rogues don't typically have the highest strength scores unless the GM is really lenient with attribute generation and wealth
most newbie rogue players tend to focus too much on the dexterity bonuses to the point of neglecting other attributes and pick trap races such as elf or halfling. your 2 best bets in pathfinder are human and half elf.
human provides and extra skill point per level and an extra feat. rogues tend to lack feats and can never have enough skill points.
many people tend to focus thier rogues on TWF damage. a bad idea as most monsters can drop you in a single round of full Attacks.
spring attack helps you get out of enemy full attack range, and gets you that one swing, scout archtype rewards you (at 8th level) by catching your opponent flat footed after moving 10 feet. the acrobatics skill helps remove the other attacks of oppurtunity from massive crowds. these 2 blend very well. this leans to human being the best race. many people say to put your favored class bonus into hit points, i say put it in skill points instead. the toughness feat can fix that. there are multiple reasons i reccomend using a dagger and finding an excuse to wear a black winter weight furisode kimono. daggers are lighter, easier to conceal, easier to carry multiple of, overcome more variety of damage reduction types, have interesting uses as a tool, can be thrown and salvaged, and you can fit several inside the sleeves of a furisode kimono. if you cannot get such clothing locally, a rank in craft (Tailoring) will do it. you want to sew pockets onto the inside of the massive sleeves (furisode sleeves go down to the ankles). women are also typically shorter and lighter, thus appearing less threatening. asian women especially. try to appear as close to 12 as your DM allows while being as emaciated as possible. which makes it easier to disguise yourself as a young boy or young girl on a whim (flat chest also helps). don't forsake constitution and don't drop your wisdom too low either. don't pump your strength above 13 as that will interefere with the childlike appearance you need to go for. a black winter weight furisode kimono also keeps you warmer in the winter and gives minor concealment at night. the dagger is also the weapon least likely to be nerfed by DM fiat. as how many times have new DM's given any 2handed weapon penalties in tight corners. this may have a few romantic drawbacks. but a sufficiently wealthy sugar daddy can keep you with a stable supply of low end magical items. this is easier to accomplish by not dumping charisma. most eccentric old men are high level wizards anyway. your starved frame will draw extremely charitable individuals from time to time. paladins are not allowed to attack you in any way as harming children is the same as harming the innocent. no matter how evil the child may seem. forcing paladins to act chivalrous around you. you will occasionally get lighter sentences on your crimes depending on the community's alignment and maybe slight discounts on various fees and taxes. the main drawback is parents, goverment officials and vegan hippies will try to take you to either your "parents." or the "local orphanage". easily solved by having the most dangerous party member sign your "adoption papers." these are minor inconveniences that are easily solved. you will only really have trouble in a modern campaign.
but since your rogue is already made. i would reccomend more flanking and more teamwork.
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Wow. That looks like a very good build for a rouge. And I am allowed to remake my rogue due to certain circumstances involving a cat and my character sheets. I could do your build, and trust me, I do, but I probably wouldn't reach the 5th level for the 4 BAB until we're long into another campaign (longest experience point build for the campaign). I will, however, see if I can incorporate some of these ideas into the game. Thank you very much!
Wow. That looks like a very good build for a rouge. And I am allowed to remake my rogue due to certain circumstances involving a cat and my character sheets. I could do your build, and trust me, I do, but I probably wouldn't reach the 5th level for the 4 BAB until we're long into another campaign (longest experience point build for the campaign). I will, however, see if I can incorporate some of these ideas into the game. Thank you very much!
i would reccomend keeping as many positive stats as possible. and don't try to max too many skills either. i would reccomend focusing on skills rather than combat. weapon finesse is still fine. i hope your dm doesn't mind me suggesting the underage girl in the kimono with daggers inside sleeve pockets. the magic height is 5'1" (61 inches) and the magic weight is anywhere between 80-100 lbs. height reducing effects tend to be measured in 6 inch increments. and why play such a scrawny little girl? to milk sympathy out of every npc you can with your fabricated sob stories that led you to become an adventurer. it's a good idea to focus on what is described Within This Link as a source for inspiration.
heres the details you are going to have to specify with said kimono.
solid black with no visible print. this makes it easier to hide at night
winter weight, to keep you warmer in the cold
pockets aligning the inside of the sleeves
it specifically has to be furisode kimono to have ankle length sleeves, which is a good thing
it must be very loose fitting, slightly oversized is a plus. to make it that much easier to conceal certain light armors.
either a wrap on or a pull over. wrap on is preferred as it hinders the rate that those old wizards can try to have thier way with you without your permission. especially if your kimono weighs more than 5 pounds. old wizards like to strip thier victims with cantrips. an 11 pound kimono negates the chance of losing your clothes to a mage hand cantrip
boots instead of sandals, easier to walk this way. less callouses means more childish cuteness.
a pair of shorts or something similar with an oversized shirt underneath the kimono make great modesty measures for performing acrobatics or for when the kimono suddenly slides off due to DM fiat.
scarves add to the cuteness factor. especially when you are constantly readjusting them, and they don't slide off like a pair of detached sleeves and cover up nervousness perfectly.
always good to wear a pair of gloves to conceal fingerprints and provide an item slot to be enchanted, a ribbon is good too. any hairstyle that can use a ribbon is nice to have. ponytail, twintails, certain types of braids, etc. ribbons make good magic items. they won't detract from childish cuteness, and they won't just accidentally fall off either.
invest in a cute fluff security blanket of some kind that you can get enchanted later. maybe that ribbon mentioned before is a memento from a deceased older sibling. ham it up if you have to. maybe that scarf is a gift from your mother that dates back to before daddy went off to war.
at least you get to build yourself up to these toys. it's better than starting way up there and just having them thrown at you. there is no rule saying that a feat has to be spent right away. so you can arguably save them for later.
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Well, I do see the logic in why he would need to look so young now. However, a child would make a greater target for all the monsters in the dungeon, since there's only one NPC that actually helps (shop keeper), and he stays on the first level at all times.
As well, the rogue's profession (this was first a 1st edition game, then went to pathfinder) is being a merchant, which children don't exactly own. And he's also friends with my fighter dwarf.
As for the kimono, I would see it as helpful, but the setting is built in a fairly warm environment. The coat would cause the rogue to sweat profusely, and probably cause a stench from him that gives negatives to his stealth score.
I will think about this idea for a different campaign, definitely. It's just not for the one I'm currently in.
Well, I do see the logic in why he would need to look so young now. However, a child would make a greater target for all the monsters in the dungeon, since there's only one NPC that actually helps (shop keeper), and he stays on the first level at all times.
As well, the rogue's profession (this was first a 1st edition game, then went to pathfinder) is being a merchant, which children don't exactly own. And he's also friends with my fighter dwarf.
As for the kimono, I would see it as helpful, but the setting is built in a fairly warm environment. The coat would cause the rogue to sweat profusely, and probably cause a stench from him that gives negatives to his stealth score.
I will think about this idea for a different campaign, definitely. It's just not for the one I'm currently in.
sounds like a good idea. try considering it for another game. i hope you like it.
Definitely. Thank you Nekogami!
Does the fighter(insert melee specialist) help you flank? Flank equals sneak attack damage.
PS:I did not read the entire thread.
Well, he's suppose to. Thing is, one of the players in my Pathfinder group loves to f*** with me a lot, so he makes sure his two characters (cleric and wizard) get in front of my dwarf fighter, and then dont move, wanting to get a better chance for my rogue to die.
And why pray tell do you game with them?
Thing is, we NEED a trap finder, and he told me that I need to be the rogue.
And they dictate your PC?
Wow.
The Scout build sounds fine except that he will need room to move, and apparently your playmates are not playing nice.
GNOME
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Well, he's suppose to. Thing is, one of the players in my Pathfinder group loves to f*** with me a lot, so he makes sure his two characters (cleric and wizard) get in front of my dwarf fighter, and then dont move, wanting to get a better chance for my rogue to die.
The next time your sure there is a trap on a door or something, tell the other player its clear and wait for them to go through it first, so they set it off.
When they get pissed about you trying to get their characters killed, tell them that door goes both ways, so if they want to be sure the traps are deactivated, then to stop blocking the fighter.
Either that, or you could have the fighter kill the sorc while he's stuck behind them in combat... just a thought... >:)
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The Feint combat maneuver allows(among other things) sneak attacks vs your next attack. Improved feint makes it a move action, greater feint is a free.
Um, that last part is incorrect. Per the Core Rulebook, p.125
Greater Feint (Combat)
You are skilled at making foes overreact to your attacks.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, base
attack bonus +6, Int 13.
Benefit: Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent
to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the
beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his
Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Normal: A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus
against your next attack.
I really wish it did make feinting a free (or more likely, swift) action, but it does not.
albeit being pretty feat intensive Shatter Defense might help you out too.
Especially if you pick up taunt. (Or your fighter specializes in demoralizing)
Also not, that per the rules, allies don't block movement ( you just can't end your movement in their squares)
If they still won't let you pass, they are just being pricks (in and out of character) [and obviously no longer your allies] and you have every right to get back at them.
maybe a Axe to the back whenever they forget to cast defensively.
Or if you don't want to be the kind of prick they are, have your fighter pick up Improved Reposition and shove their fat asses out of the way, like every real dwarf would do.
Wow...I never realized how many useful feats there were that use expertise until just now. Thanks again!
lol Yeah it's why INT is not a Dump Stat :)
GNOME
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Okay. Lets see...here are the original stats, with the new set of feats (including rogue feat) at level 3 for my elf rogue, scout build.
Str 18 4
DEX 19 4
Con 16 3
Int 15 2
Wis 13 1
Cha 17 3
feats: Combat expertise (-1 atk, +1 AC), Improved Feint (Move, not Standard), Trap Spotter (chance to see traps in 10 ft.)
Also, I made him a one weapon user now, with a light weapon in case the main weapon breaks or something (was thinking of making main weapon an elven curve blade or somethin XD).
Stats in profile.
I used to play a rogue at low levels and completely hated the cruddy sitational damage - then I discovered the THUG :)
Well, he's suppose to. Thing is, one of the players in my Pathfinder group loves to f*** with me a lot, so he makes sure his two characters (cleric and wizard) get in front of my dwarf fighter, and then dont move, wanting to get a better chance for my rogue to die.
Sounds like you need a new game group. Might be worth the time investment to find a group a little more familiar with teamwork.
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Honestly, I did. All other groups are either in a different city, or about 20 miles on the opposite side of the city. And, honestly, it's just this campaign that he's trying to kill me, so I'm beginning to think that it is just in-game character, but he keeps metagaming that I'm a thief (in campaign, I'm only known as a trap-finder). Hard to come to a conclusion about it.
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I disagree. There is no reason for them to be treating you like that, and no reason that you need to put up with it.
If your too young to drive or simply cant get to the other side of town or whatever to play with another group, and youve just GOT to get your dnd fix, then I could understand staying. Otherwise, I think Id be bookin it.
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It's not that I'm too young, it's that I dont have a car and job...though am in senior year of HS. And I think I'll be okay from now on, since I remade my rogue, and got a few pointers from the dude who gives me trouble. Yeah, he does it cause his character is apparently CE, though acts CN for his own benefit, and thinks a 'trapfinder' will steal his thunder (character thinks that), so were on good terms now.
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Rogues aren't a dps class, they are a skill utility class. If they landed a sneak attack every round they wouldn't come close to leading in DPS. Show me a level 5 rogue that comes anywhere remotely near 80+ dpr because that's the top of the line DPS at the moment. Then factor in sneak-attack being situational and 2 rogues together wouldn't make the top.
For a rogue to not gimp their party, the adventures REQUIRE traps and locks that other classes cannot deal with. Once a rogue soloed a whole PFS module by sneaking in, stealing a spellbook, and sneaking out (he rolled insanely well) lol. We could've just ended it there but plowed through it anyway.