Blazing Channel

[ZanThrax]

Anyone have an opinion on if Blazing Channel would be a feat that "adds to this ability [power over undead], such as Extra Channel and Improved Channel", or a "feat that alter[s] this ability, such as Elemental Channel and Alignment Channel"?

The examples of feats that alter the ability cause channel to work on a type other than undead, whereas Blazing Channel still works as Turn Undead, it just sets the undead on fire as well.

[Diego Rossi]

Generally, this kind of question requires context, specifically, of what "Power over undead" you are speaking. There are so many false positives in the Archive of Nethys that finding the correct one would require a lot of time.

[I grok do u]

Since Blazing Channel does just improve Turn Undead's effects on undead (like Improved Channel), it should be valid for the Necromancy School wizard's power.

[Diego Rossi]

Necromancer Archetype wrote:

Power over Undead (Su): You receive Command Undead or Turn Undead as a bonus feat. You can channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier, but only to use the selected feat. You can take other feats to add to this ability, such as Extra Channel and Improved Channel, but not feats that alter this ability, such as Elemental Channel and Alignment Channel. The DC to save against these feats is equal to 10 + 1/2 your wizard level + your Charisma modifier. At 20th level, undead cannot add their channel resistance to the save against this ability.

Feat wrote:

Blazing Channel

Source Cohorts and Companions pg. 15
Your holy power burns the undead like fire.

Prerequisites: Turn Undead, channel positive energy class feature.

Benefit: When you use your Turn Undead feat, undead failing their saving throw are engulfed in holy fire. This functions identically to catching on fire (Core Rulebook 444), but the damage dealt is divine (like the divine damage from flame strike) rather than fire. Water cannot extinguish this holy fire, but any negative energy effect that heals the creature of at least 5 points of damage extinguishes the flames instantly.

I disagree with I grok do u. Blazing Channel modifies Turn Undead by changing its effects, and Power over Undead explicitly prohibits you from taking feats that modify it.

[I grok do u]

I'll elaborate on my reasoning. Totally fair for anyone else to disagree, though.

One obvious issue is the vagaries of the definitions of add to and alter. The examples provided for each then become the basis of comparison.

Acceptable feats:

Extra Channel wrote:

Prerequisites: Channel energy class feature.

Benefit: You can channel energy two additional times per day.

Improve Channel wrote:

Prerequisites: Channel energy class feature.

Benefit: Add 2 to the DC of saving throws made to resist the effects of your channel energy ability.

1st gives extra uses - no change to ability

2nd increases DC of ability - modifies the DC of effects of channel energy ability
Both "add to" channel energy and would apply to all uses of channel energy
My argument here is that since increasing the DC is acceptable, then other direct upgrades are acceptable.

Unacceptable feats:
Elemental Channel
Benefit: Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of your chosen elemental subtype. You must make this choice each time you channel energy. If you choose to heal or harm creatures of your elemental subtype, your channel energy has no affect on other creatures. The amount of damage healed or dealt and the DC to halve the damage is otherwise unchanged.

Alignment Channel

Alignment Channel wrote:

Benefit: Instead of its normal effect, you can choose to have your ability to channel energy heal or harm outsiders of the chosen alignment subtype. You must make this choice each time you channel energy. If you choose to heal or harm creatures of the chosen alignment subtype, your channel energy has no effect on other creatures. The amount of damage healed or dealt and the DC to halve the damage is otherwise unchanged.

1st feat - change targets to elemental subtype

2nd feat - change targets to outsider alignment subtypes
Both feats change the targets and include the language, "instead of it's normal effect, you can choose," which I think is the alteration the ability text refers to. Note also that a choice must be made for this to apply to the given use of channel energy. These increase the potential versatility of channel energy, and that is what the limitation is meant to prevent. Other impermissible feats would be Channeling Variance, Channel Force, Channel Smite, Channeling Force, and the deity-specific ones like Channel Endurance.

This argument, admittedly, is dependent on the assumption that "add to" means to improve the ability while "alter" is limited to changing the nature of the targets (it is power over undead, not undead+ others).

The second aspect of the argument is that "this ability" is referring to the channel energy part as the clear intention was to limit the channel energy ability to using the Command Undead or Turn Undead feat. Blazing Channel, despite the name, specifically states it works when using the Turn Undead feat, rather than changing Channel Energy at all.

A hypothetical comparison here would be whether a necromancer wizard could take the Undead Master feat to increase the HD of controlled undead in conjunction with Command Undead or that the Mythic versions of the feats would be allowed. My argument would be that they could, so the Blazing Channel being allowed would also be consistent with that. YMMV

Channel Ray is a bit more "iffy" for me, so fortunately that is not the question at hand.

For reference

Turn Undead wrote:

Benefit: You can, as a standard action, use one of your uses of channel positive energy to cause all undead within 30 feet of you to flee, as if panicked. Undead receive a Will save to negate the effect. The DC for this Will save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Charisma modifier. Undead that fail their save flee for 1 minute. Intelligent undead receive a new saving throw each round to end the effect. If you use channel energy in this way, it has no other effect (it does not heal or harm nearby creatures).

[Belafon]

I agree, it would be allowed.

If you have Power over undead (Turn Undead) and Blazing Channel, then the Turn Undead still has its full, normal affect. It just has an additional affect (catching on fire) added to it. That's not like Elemental Channel, where (if you choose to affect elementals) the Turn Undead does not have its normal affect.

[ZanThrax]

And the above is why I'm curious about what others think. Because I'd say that strictly speaking, adding "catches on fire" to "flees as if panicked" is what Blazing Channel is doing. But I can see that some people would say that it's changing what Turn Undead does, rather than just bumping up some of the numbers. (And I would personally rule that Channel Ray is changing Turn Undead, not adding to it.)

[Diego Rossi]

I grok do u wrote:

One obvious issue is the vagaries of the definitions of add to and alter. The examples provided for each then become the basis of comparison.

I completely agree; those are unclear definitions. For me, Blazing Channel alters the effect of Turn Undead, which becomes "catch fire and flee".

For others, it is Turn Undead makes the undead flee, and the addition of Blazing Channel makes them catch fire.

Based on the wording, both interpretations are fine.

As a side note, I am convinced that the person who wrote the feat never thought about the interaction with the Necromancer ability. The damage dealt is Divine, something that is not normally available to Wizards. Adding it to their arsenal is a bit weird.

[Azothath]

Wiz-Necromancy school: Power over Undead (Su): Command Undead or Turn Undead as a bonus feat with DC (10 +⌊Wiz/2⌋ +CHA) with Channel energy (3 +INT) uses/d. Add:Extra Channel and Improved Channel(examples), but not Alter:Elemental Channel and Alignment Channel(examples). At 20th level, undead cannot add their channel resistance to the save against this ability.

Wizard-Hallowed Necromancer "Turn Undead (Su): A hallowed necromancer must select Turn Undead as a bonus feat with her power over undead arcane school ability."

• Turn Undead: standard action expend channel positive use, undead within 30ft rad Will (10 +⌊Clr/2⌋ +CHA) or flee 10 rnds as if panicked, intelligent undead get new save attempt each round.

• Blazing Channel: "When you use your Turn Undead feat, undead failing their saving throw a..." if turned {flee} (1d6)[divine]dmg/rnd & succeeding rounds (normally Rflx 15 to avoid or end, +4 if aided by another/circumstance, auto if doused/immersed in water) ended if neg energy heals 5+ hps.

• Elemental Channel: "Instead of its normal effect, you can choose..." basically heal or harm a single chosen elemental type (ignoring other creatures, aka undead type).

• Alignment Channel: "instead of its normal effect...", heal or harm single chose outsider alignment subtype (ignoring other creatures)

• Extra Channel: +2 uses/day.

• Improved Channel: +2 DC to channel.

semantics... Blazing doesn't read like Elemental or Alignment nor does it have "instead of its normal effect". It seems to be an Add on with an initial (high) save versus the channel/turn.
Action sequence on successive rounds would be; A) save vs the channel for Intelligent undead {stop fleeing}, then B) using an action a Rflx 15 to stop the holy fire, rolling around in unholy water/profane ground, or profane cloth adds +4 to save.

[I grok do u]

Diego Rossi wrote:

As a side note, I am convinced that the person who wrote the feat never thought about the interaction with the Necromancer ability.

Ain't that the truth, for sooo many feat/ability combinations!

[Diego Rossi]

I grok do u wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

As a side note, I am convinced that the person who wrote the feat never thought about the interaction with the Necromancer ability.

Ain't that the truth, for sooo many feat/ability combinations!

Without doubt.

Plus the difference between thousands of players trying weird and useful combinations against a guy who knows how the ability he wrote works and has already dismissed "unorthodox" uses.