Frightened and panicked actions

[Yonman]

Frightened

A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear.

Panicked

A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Panicked is a more extreme state of fear than shaken or frightened.

A couple of questions,
1. What constitutes cornered? If there is a diagonal between two creatures is that considered cornered?
2. And isn’t bull rush or overrun viable options as long it isn’t the source of the fear? If so, does that apply to everyone regardless how good they are at a combat maneuver?
3. And if they move out of line of sight from their source of fear can they do any other actions?

[Azothath]

→Conditions on AoN online PRD
and Conditions on d20pfsrd

1. What constitutes cornered? If there is a diagonal between two creatures is that considered cornered?
2. And isn’t bull rush or overrun viable options as long it isn’t the source of the fear? If so, does that apply to everyone regardless how good they are at a combat maneuver?
3. And if they move out of line of sight from their source of fear can they do any other actions?
as usual the GM will have to resolve specific instances in his game. The book can't cover every case.

Fear comes in a increasingly debilitating series; shaken ->frightened ->panicked (cowering).

Cornered generally means the creature is bounded/hindered on three sides for movement away from the source of fear. It doesn't need to be adjacent to the creature, simply obvious. It could also mean the bounds would incur an AoO as you can move through (with a check) creature's squares. I'm not sure a Move By is a hindrance in a panicked condition.

Bull Rush and Overrun are attacks. That's a "no" if attacks are forbidden.

Line of Sight(LoS) does not affect Duration of the Condition. Creatures will progress through a maze to escape. Whether they take random turns is up to the GM and that is based on the severity of the Condition and what the GM thinks is appropriate for the specific instance.

[Yonman]

Azothath wrote:

→Conditions on AoN online PRD

and Conditions on d20pfsrd

1. What constitutes cornered? If there is a diagonal between two creatures is that considered cornered?
2. And isn’t bull rush or overrun viable options as long it isn’t the source of the fear? If so, does that apply to everyone regardless how good they are at a combat maneuver?
3. And if they move out of line of sight from their source of fear can they do any other actions?
as usual the GM will have to resolve specific instances in his game. The book can't cover every case.

Cornered generally means the creature is bounded/hindered on three sides for movement away from the source of fear. It doesn't need to be adjacent to the creature, simply obvious. It could also mean the bounds would incur an AoO as you can move through (with a check) creature's squares. I'm not sure a Move By is a hindrance in a panicked condition.

Bull Rush and Overrun are attacks. That's a "no" if attacks are forbidden.

Line of Sight(LoS) does not affect Duration of the Condition. Creatures will progress through a maze to escape. Whether they take random turns is up to the GM and that is based on the severity of the Condition and what the GM thinks is appropriate for the specific instance.

For Line if Sight (LoS) : if a creature that is frightened move out of line of sight is their actions over or do they have to continually run away?

[Azothath]

LoS is not mentioned under the Shaken or Frightened condition. Ignore it unless directed(in spell description) or it is a situational factor to consider. Often the "source of fear" is mobile and the fleeing creature would assume it is(or soon will be) chased. Perception checks are free actions.
Creatures follow the direction of the Condition for the Duration.
I think the only variable (besides environmental/map) is when does stuff happen. Penalties(to hit, AC, etc) are immediate. Generally the affected creature can't act(drop stuff, flee) until its turn. Read spells carefully as sometimes they force a specific action.

I don't think it should be parsed to less than 1 tactical movement with a standard action following environmental(map) clues. That would be 2 moves in a full round if the condition persists that long. there's no hard(Y/N) answer. running has requirements.

In Fight or Flight - animals do dumb stuff as they don't have time to think or rationalize. Young children (Int or Wis less than 9) will seek the first hiding spot and hide - even if it is nonsensical for the situation as they are just acting on instinct. It is how many die from smoke inhalation.

again, people will want to game the system to their advantage. GMs should be fair and impartial but in a Game some people will range from Rule of Cool to an ethical judgement (or precedent) or one based on animal behavior.

Are GMs better at snap judgements? no... lol... they do have to try to be the adult in the room. How much fantasy, or story telling, or realism, or pedantic readings is a matter of taste and style along with what the GM knows.

[Diego Rossi]

The Conditions aren't the only source of rules about fear and its different levels.

Fear

CRB - Combat wrote:

Fear

Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 564
Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. In most cases, the character makes a Will saving throw to resist this effect, and a failed roll means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Shaken: Characters who are shaken take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the paths of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. If the duration of their fear continues, however, characters can be forced to flee if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).

Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than running away from the source, their paths are random. They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.

Becoming Even More Fearful: Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

So:

1) Frightened: You are cornered if you have no way to flee. You can move to squares adjacent to the enemy if that is the only way to flee. You will risk AoO if that is the fastest way to flee.
Panicked: You are forced to move away from the source of your panic; you will avoid all AoO unless risking them is the only way to avoid the source of your panic (They flee from all other dangers that confront them).

2) Bull rush and overrun: they can be used if you are Frightened (with the shaken penalty).
In my opinion, they can be used only if it is the only way to flee. The rules aren't meant to allow you to attack claiming that "you are running away in fear".

3)Taking normal actions after someone is out of the line of sight (or hearing) of the source of fear: Yes, you can take normal actions. You are still shaken.

The Conditions are a handy summary of the effect of fear, but the rules in the Combat section are more precise and complete.

Fear in Horror rules

[Azothath]

with perception -1/10 ft, -10 for battle, a 10 DC yields 200ft+. For most that's at least 3.5 full actions.
There are a lot of situational modifiers based on what/where is going on.

[Diego Rossi]

Azothath wrote:

with perception -1/10 ft, -10 for battle, a 10 DC yields 200ft+. For most that's at least 3.5 full actions.

There are a lot of situational modifiers based on what/where is going on.

Absolutely. The terrain matters a lot. In an open field, you will run far, far away. In a typical maze, you would be unable to see the opponent after a single move action, and unable to hear it after a couple (a 1-foot-thick wall gives a -10 to the perception skill check). A maze probably will not have doors, but sound is still heavily attenuated when it travels through winding routes.

As with most things in the game, the distance at which you can still register the enemy presence should be adjudicated by the GM.

[Yonman]

Okay, I see everyone’s input.
So next question.
If a creature is frightened and cornered it can attack, but does that include spells or abilities or just physical attacks.
Assuming I am NOT using the variant rules in fear.

[Azothath]

seems theorhetical as it should have used spells to escape previously.

[Yonman]

Azothath wrote:

seems theorhetical as it should have used spells to escape previously.

Well it says a frightened character can use spells and abilities to flee, not to fight.

So my interpretation is he can’t use spells and abilities to fight, only to flee.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The condition does not specify how you have to fight so limiting it to not using spells is overly restrictive. If I can pull out a sword and attack, hey can I not pull out a holy symbol or spell component to cast. The condition specifies it can use spells to flee, so obviously the condition does not prevent spell casting.

[Diego Rossi]

Yonman wrote:

Azothath wrote:

seems theorhetical as it should have used spells to escape previously.

Well it says a frightened character can use spells and abilities to flee, not to fight.

So my interpretation is he can’t use spells and abilities to fight, only to flee.

That is to specify that while attempting to flee, the frightened creature can use spells or abilities if it make easier to flee. A panicked creature can't use them.

The condition doesn't say anything about the frightened creature not using spells or abilities when cornered, so there aren't limitations to that (besides the creature being shaken).

Quote:

Shaken: A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.

No limitation about using spells or abilities. If the Frightened condition is caused by a spell, casting a spell would require a concentration check.

Concentration checks wrote:

Affected by a non-damaging spell while casting DC of the spell + spell level

To put it another way: you are trying to apply the limitations of Panicked to a Frightened creature.

[Azothath]

between the two RAW sections it is pretty clear.

Dry Chat -
The conditions form a case/logic hierarchy with inheritance and some subsets; A, B, B1, B2, C, C1... so at B1, A still applies due to inheritance. It is best not to make up rules about a subset as they should be infrequent and specific to that condition, but you can create a logic chart if you want. Just remember that the authors & descriptions are procedural rather than logical.

Practical Game Chat - (aka Advice)
PCs casters should have a way to escape melee and this would include fear conditions. Wands do not provoke and that is tactically important. Two Spring-loaded Wrist Sheaths with Wand of Vanish and Obscuring Mist are needed. Spellguard Bracers come later at $5000. After evading/escaping PCs can regroup and get a new plan. That is the second important strategy - if your party loses your caster or main melee guy - REGROUP. Don't try to tough it out with just secondary fighters or support casters. If your main fighter gets feared and caster makes it, time for some battlefield control and likely regrouping. The problem with buffing just the fighter for a new save is the other party members in the initiative queue that are likely to fail. Effect duration is the other important factor. 1-2 rounds okay. 3+ rounds are killer.
One of the more amusing options (dependent upon the conditions at the time) is to Resilient Sphere yourself. Using Gaseous Form in the open is asking to be killed.

Honestly Cause Fear is not practical unless you have 2-3 and are scraping the bottom of the spell barrel. There are many anti-fear buffs out there. Break, Color Spray, and others are more effective.

[Diego Rossi]

Azothath wrote:

Honestly Cause Fear is not practical unless you have 2-3 and are scraping the bottom of the spell barrel. There are many anti-fear buffs out there. Break, Color Spray, and others are more effective.

Fear effects are more useful for monsters. Except for Eyebite when the PCs are level 9 or lower, and the enemy is level 11+.

Low-voiced grumbles about that damned necromancer.