| SuperParkourio |
Shockwave rune makes the weapons Strikes deal 1 bludgeoning splash damage per weapon damage die.
How does it work? Is it like a bomb with the splash trait, where it does the same splash damage on all but a critical failure? Or does it work more like a normal Strike, only dealing full splash damage on a hit or double on a crit?
| Baarogue |
I thought the differing splash traits initially printed in PC1 and GMC were unified into one
Page 244: Bombs should have the thrown trait, and some items with the bomb trait or splash trait but not the other didn’t work as intended.
Under Alchemical Bombs, change the final sentence to “Bombs have the bomb trait, and have the thrown trait even though it isn’t listed.”
The bomb trait and splash trait now both remove a thrown weapon’s Strength modifier to damage to cover items like glue bomb and holy water.
In the second paragraph under Alchemical Bombs, add the following after the first sentence. “However, they don’t add your Strength modifier to damage like other thrown weapons.”
Under Splash Trait, change the second sentence. Because there was previous errata to the 1st printing for splash damage, the whole paragraph appears here with the new sentence in bold.
“Some weapons and effects, such as alchemical bombs, have the splash trait. You don’t add your Strength modifier to the damage roll for any thrown weapon with the splash trait (even if the item doesn’t have the bomb trait). A splash weapon or effect deals any listed splash damage to the target on a failure, success, or critical success, and to all other creatures within 5 feet of the target on a success or critical success. On a critical failure, the weapon or effect misses entirely, dealing no damage. Add splash damage together with the initial damage against the target before applying the target’s resistance or weakness. You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit.”
Note that bombs have limitations from the bomb trait and the consumable trait. For example, since the bomb is destroyed after your attack, it won’t return to your hand if you use an ability like the swashbuckler’s Twirling Throw. Similarly, an exemplar with the shadow sheath ikon couldn’t create unlimited copies of an alchemical bomb to get around the restrictions of the consumable trait.
Alchemical bombs are unconventional thrown weapons! The GM might rule that some abilities built for thrown weapons have limitations or won’t work with bombs.
Page 292: Alchemical bombs needed several updates to their wording to clarify whether they work as thrown weapons or not. The updates to the full rules appear in GM Core, and the errata entry found there also includes some clarifications.
For the abbreviated rules on page 292, change the first paragraph under Alchemical Bombs to the following.
“Alchemical bombs are consumable weapons that deal damage or produce special effects, and they sometimes deal splash damage. A bomb is a martial thrown weapon with a range increment of 20 feet. It can’t benefit from runes, and it doesn’t add your Strength modifier to damage despite being a thrown weapon.”
Is there a differing source?
edit: I don't mean items, spells or other abilities that specify distributing their "splash" damage differently than this general rule in their own degrees of success
| Finoan |
Is there a differing source?
AoN doesn't have the updated errata for its printing of the Splash trait.
Going off of what was quoted from the GM Core errata, what I see is that the rules are pretty well defined.
Some weapons and effects, such as alchemical bombs, have the splash trait. You don’t add your Strength modifier to the damage roll for any thrown weapon with the splash trait (even if the item doesn’t have the bomb trait). A splash weapon or effect deals any listed splash damage to the target on a failure, success, or critical success, and to all other creatures within 5 feet of the target on a success or critical success. On a critical failure, the weapon or effect misses entirely, dealing no damage. Add splash damage together with the initial damage against the target before applying the target’s resistance or weakness. You don’t multiply splash damage on a critical hit.
So putting a Shockwave rune on a Club would work fine according to the rules for runes. The Shockwave rune requires a bludgeoning melee weapon and the Club is a bludgeoning melee weapon with the Thrown trait.
The updated rules limit the removal of Strength bonus damage to only thrown weapons (the older rules didn't make that distinction and would remove the Strength damage from the club). So when used as a melee weapon, the Strength damage still gets added to the primary damage of the weapon. I don't think it would be added to the splash damage amount, but that isn't entirely specified.
If you use the club as a thrown weapon, then the Shockwave rune would not function because it is on the wrong type of weapon. It requires a melee weapon and the club is a ranged weapon when thrown.
If the GM and table forget that part and have the rune apply anyway, the rule for Strength damage on Thrown weapons with the Splash trait would again take effect because now it is a thrown weapon with the splash trait instead of a melee weapon with the splash trait. So you wouldn't apply your Strength damage to the base weapon damage of the thrown club. Though if the GM and table forget the part about the weapon rune not working at all for being on the wrong type of weapon, they may very well also forget about how the Splash trait works.
The splash damage follows its own stated general rules for how to modify the damage based on degree of success. Which does differ from how the Strike of the weapon itself modifies damage based on degree of success. On a critical fail, it deals no direct damage or splash damage. On a failure, it only deals its splash damage to the primary target of the attack. And on both success and critical success, it deals its damage to both the primary target and any creatures within 5 feet of that target.
| Finoan |
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The rune doesn't have the splash trait at all, and it doesn't give any Strikes the splash trait. It just says the Strikes do splash damage.
I think that is more that the splash damage itself would have the splash trait. Because that makes sense. And because the rules for the rune are rather obviously trying to interact with the rules for the Splash trait (by doing things like making the wielder of the melee weapon immune to the splash damage that they would otherwise be taking ... even though the Shockwave rune itself never says that all creatures within 5 feet are the ones who would take the splash damage).
It is very much like how a Torch doesn't have the fire trait, but does list that you can use it to deal fire damage. I'm still not going to allow you to use it to deal fire damage underwater even though the Aquatic Combat rules are keyed off of the Fire trait, not fire damage.
| Kelseus |
It appears that Paizo has been inconsistent with their language on property runes that add damage.
The weapon deals an additional 1d6 fire damage on a successful Strike...
When you hit with the weapon, add 1d6 acid damage to the damage dealt...
Strikes made with it gain the holy trait and deal an extra 1d4 spirit damage...
Shockwave's language is most similar to the Holy Rune. This language is also used with the Astral Rune.
I think RAW is unclear, but considering that the Shockwave Rune uses the same format langauge as the Holy Rune, i.e. "Strikes with [this weapon] deals [extra damage]," I think RAI at least means that it only does the splash damage on a hit.
| Finoan |
The rules for splash damage really belong in the damage types sidebar alongside persistent damage and precision damage. Not the splash trait, which isn't even on half the things that deal splash damage.
Yeah. They put Bleed damage on there, and that is just a subtype of the Persistent Damage condition.
| Tridus |
It says it does splash damage, so the easiest way to handle it is to run it like splash damage: it happens on a failure, success, or critical success on the relevant action (the strike).
The lack of the splash trait means the rules aren't in the most obvious place to find, but the splash damage rules do work here, and the rune making you immune does make it clear they expect you may be in the splash radius normally.