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Hi, I'm JC. I've run asynchronous tabletop games with friends for years, got frustrated running long campaigns in tools built for real-time chat or some kinds of forums, and built inkroll.gg, a browser platform made specifically for play-by-post, with a beautiful and (hopefully) well designed interface without the usual noise and complexity.
Pathfinder 2e is one of the systems it supports natively now, and this forum holds more play-by-post experience than anywhere I know, so I'd like your judgment on whether I got it right.
Concretely: characters carry real sheets and the dice read them. You type a roll in your post, like {perception}; on publish the server rolls 1d20, adds your modifier and freezes the result in, and editing afterwards never rerolls it. The three saves and every skill answer to their own names, so {save-reflex}, {stealth} and {thievery} all work, and a menu above the editor lists what your character can roll right now. All this is customizable, and you can add your own roll types. Every roll a post ever made stays in an audit beside the timestamp, including ones deleted mid-edit, so nobody can quietly reroll a failed save. It never sees the DC, so degrees of success stay with the table.
Posts can write back to the sheet (which is versioned, so a post from six months ago shows the character exactly as they were then). {hp-8} takes eight damage and stops at zero, {hero-1} spends a hero point, {dying+1} raises the dying condition when you drop. Above the composer sits a strip with hit points, AC, hero points, focus and a row of pips per spell rank, so spending a slot happens in the same move as describing the spell. If I've missed a field you need, it's easy to add.
Optionally, and this part is on the gamemaster's paid tier, world and tactical maps live in a side drawer, with a grid and tokens you can lay over them for reference. I don't want to build a full combat system, that stays in the gamemaster's hands, but a place to put the tokens helps, and it's versioned with the posts like everything else.
The part I'd most like poked at is secrecy. A gamemaster can seal part of a post for chosen characters, and nobody else receives that text at all, since it's stripped on the server rather than hidden in the page. Dice are deliberately never secret though, so a roll inside a sealed passage still shows in the audit anyone can open. An audit nobody can edit is what makes dice worth trusting.
The app is free and stays free for the core: campaigns, posts, dice, sheets, secrets, import and export, plus importers that carry a game over from Myth-Weavers or a Discord channel (nothing for paizo.com yet, tell me if you'd use one?). Optional paid tiers add the maps, campaign statistics and a printable book, and only the gamemaster ever pays.
Better than long explanations: there's a one-click demo on the front page: inkroll.gg, then hit "Try the demo", pick Pathfinder, and you're inside "The Embervault Company" as its gamemaster with no account, posting as any of the cast through the dropdown. Not affiliated with Paizo, to be clear.
So, does this match how you run second edition by post, and is it pleasant to use? What I'm chasing is low cognitive load, and a tool made for writing asynchronously and does not try to do everything. I'm least sure about two things: whether a secret check should hide from the audit as well as from the page, and whether the app should name the degree of success when a gamemaster hands it a DC, or whether that leaks a number players aren't meant to have. Let me know and I'd be happy to patch it and make it better.
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This may not be the case for everyone, but there were a few things that really put me off of it.
- I'm more inclined to use a product without AI images and features. But beyond that, you have a "By humans, for humans" section is for saying that you're not using AI; it feels disingenuous to have that header only to explain that you are using it for non-GM things. It's not as bad as lying or failing to disclose, but it's not a good look.
- This is minor, but... you're definitely lying about the $6/month option being the "most popular", right? Is it really more popular than the free tier? I imagine it's part of the pre-fab widget, but maybe you can change that to a more honest "our recommendation" or similar.
Those are a few things that would diminish the good will I had towards using this- I certainly couldn't recommend it to any of my GMs with AI assets in the demo and an AI tier option in place; all of them would be personally insulted.
That said, I can provide some PF2-specific feedback.
- The PF2 sheet not doing automatic proficiency calculations is gonna be rough to use. Every level-up will entail manually updating... 22-24 numbers. (If you do add that, having an override will be useful for various edge cases, and an Untrained Improvisation feat checkbox is common.)
- Having a myth-weavers import could help address the above issue, but I believe Pathbuilder is going to be the big-value import option for PF2 play-by-post.
- Most critically, there should be at least two spots to enter lore skills, if not four. Every character will have at least one, and needing to go manually make a macro for each one would be an issue.
- Minor thing, but PF2 has moved over to just using ability modifiers in the remaster, with no separate ability scores.
And finally, to answer your questions:
- I think you might want a separate GM audit log for secret checks. The GM will need to know, but the players shouldn't know.
- Degree of success should probably be announced for non-secret checks, but definitely NOT for secret checks.
(While we're at it, I'll go ahead and flag this to get it moved to the correct area. It probably doesn't belong in Paizo General Discussion, since, well, it's a non-Paizo tool.)
Hi QuidEst!
About AI: yes I use it to create demo campaign and illustrations for example (honestly, it wouldn't be possible for me otherwise), and it's an option in the highest tier to help people query their campaign, make summeries, etc. But it's totally optional. If you are in principle against any product where AI is optionally available, then you would be facing the decision to cut off about 99% of everything you use in your digital life nowadays...
About the 6$/month "most popular". This is a classic marketing formulation, meaning essentially: if you want to pay, this is probably the tier that you want. It's not based on statistical analysis for sure, we don't have enough users for that at the moment! I can definitely change it to "our recommendation", which is more correct I agree.
* PF2 sheet with automatic proficiency calculation: I'll look into it, thanks. The trick is to make it generic enough I can formulate it within the json format used to define a game system, so that it's not a PF2 special trick, but a general expressivity of the machinery used for PF2.
* noted for pathbuilder. I could add this indeed, because otherwise the myth-weavers import does just import the content, but not the sheets for now.
* no problem to add slots for lore skills, ok
* ok for the ability modifiers change, I'll look into that!
I'm going to work on a patch to include all this. Many many thanks for the great and constructive feedback! And feel free to move this thread where it belongs of course.
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Hi QuidEst!
About AI: yes I use it to create demo campaign and illustrations for example (honestly, it wouldn't be possible for me otherwise),
Well, I'd disagree a bit. You're making a play-by-post service, and so plenty of the people who would use that service are going to have some nostalgia for old forums where people used all sorts of images for character portraits. There's the Public Domain Internet Archive, the Smithsonian's CCO collection, or aggregators like publicdomainimages.net. There are other places with voluntary submissions to creative commons, but those will typically involve a bit more filtering and hunting to weed out AI and copyrighted material.
Obviously, you don't have to cater to me specifically. Some people aren't going to mind AI. I would keep in mind, though, that GMs are typically creative people in the broad categories of people who are having their work stolen by AI. I can tell you that authentic-but-terrible MS Paint drawings would make a much better impression on any of the GMs I personally play with.
If you are in principle against any product where AI is optionally available, then you would be facing the decision to cut off about 99% of everything you use in your digital life nowadays...
It lowers my personal interest and my ability to recommend it. If it were still the best option after that, sure, I might use or recommend it if PbP comes up. But this product is competing with Discord (GMs are already on it, and it's useful for many other things), traditional forums (no AI features, nostalgic, easier recruiting), and VTTs like Foundry and Roll20 (not designed for asynchronous PbP, but excellent map and character sheet integration and no AI features).
* PF2 sheet with automatic proficiency calculation: I'll look into it, thanks. The trick is to make it generic enough I can formulate it within the json format used to define a game system, so that it's not a PF2 special trick, but a general expressivity of the machinery used for PF2.
Hmm... well, the biggest thing is that PF2 has many things that add your level as a modifier. A fully self-calculating sheet would need to at least define the trained/expert/master/legendary modifiers, but something that increments fields with level might be easier? I know 5e has a proficiency modifier that increments at certain levels, so a value that automatically changes to linked fields is going to have some more general value to it.
Just to clarify and perhaps close this AI discussion: there is NO ai in inkroll except in the illustrations of the demo campaign (won't be visible if you don't look at the demos), perhaps some icons/badges here and there, and if you optionally use the summerazing feature of the "chronicle" tier, which is really just to save people the pain of copy/pasting the exported campaign to chatGPT + better integration. Yes, I could pay an artist to make genuine illustrations for the demo campaign, but I would need to make a bit of money first :) As for the chronicle feature, I use it with my 6 years old campaign and it's amazing, because you can ask questions about obscure past events or onboard new players easily, but really it's up to the GM to decide if they want it or not, it's never AI forced down on you.
Now, on the more PF2 part: I've added a small improvement. The PF2e sheet now calculates itself out of the box: skills, saves, Perception and Lore bonuses derive from attribute + rank + level, so leveling up means changing one number and everything moves, including the dice menu. Your Untrained Improvisation checkbox is in too (half level, full level from 7th). Typing over any derived bonus overrides it (item bonuses, odd cases), with a little reset arrow back to the formula.
Under the hood it's a small formula grammar on the ruleset definition, so custom systems get the same power:
{ "id": "perception", "label": "Perception", "type": "number", "signed": true, "compute": "wis-mod + pick(perception-rank, Untrained=0, Trained=level+2, Expert=level+4, Master=level+6, Legendary=level+8)" }
Your more general "increments with level" case works the same way: a 5e-style proficiency bonus is just "2 + floor(level - 1, 4)". There's also if, min/max and basic arithmetic.
You also have 'if', min/max/floor, and some basic arithmetic. It should get us there, I hope. I would really like to have your feedback on all this if you get a chance to try it.
About Discord, myth-weavers and Foundry, roll20, etc: I've used them all, and none of these are really taylored for PbP (they are chat, forum, or real time platforms, twisted into PbP). My ambition here is to make a pure PbP platform. Not to do "more", but to do "less". Try to not be overwhelming with features, just focus on the core, and do it well. Focus on the experience, make it really nice, fluid, pleasant and, hopefully, beautiful. We will see if these are valued by players in the long run, but as for myself, I'm really happy to use it! always have yourself as a customer, I guess :)
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Just to clarify and perhaps close this AI discussion: there is NO ai in inkroll except in the illustrations of the demo campaign (won't be visible if you don't look at the demos), perhaps some icons/badges here and there, and if you optionally use the summerazing feature of the "chronicle" tier, which is really just to save people the pain of copy/pasting the exported campaign to chatGPT + better integration. Yes, I could pay an artist to make genuine illustrations for the demo campaign, but I would need to make a bit of money first :) As for the chronicle feature, I use it with my 6 years old campaign and it's amazing, because you can ask questions about obscure past events or onboard new players easily, but really it's up to the GM to decide if they want it or not, it's never AI forced down on you.
I certainly understand what you're saying, yeah. I'm not saying that you need to go commission artists for character portraits before you have any customers; I am saying that if I sent this to my GMs, they would check out the demo, see the AI portraits, and be turned off as a result. The alternative to "placeholder images made with AI" is "placeholder public domain art made by humans and free to use". Demos had placeholder images before 2021, after all.
I'll go ahead and leave it at that, though. If my view is actually representative, then you'll get similar feedback elsewhere. If it's not, then you won't.
Now, on the more PF2 part: I've added a small improvement. The PF2e sheet now calculates itself out of the box: skills, saves, Perception and Lore bonuses derive from attribute + rank + level, so leveling up means changing one number and everything moves, including the dice menu. Your Untrained Improvisation checkbox is in too (half level, full level from 7th). Typing over any derived bonus overrides it (item bonuses, odd cases), with a little reset arrow back to the formula.
Sounds like a good improvement that will make it a lot easier to use for PF2.
Hey JC-inkroll,
I have a few more questions that I don't think I've seen answered in the thread:
- Is there built-in syntax for arbitrary dice rolls (e.g. `1d20+5`), or do you need to define/use a roll type for everything?
- Can you post images directly in a post?
- Can you preview a roll before publishing the post, or is it only rolled when the post is submitted?
- Can you create aliases for different characters?
Thank you - seems like a very interesting project!
Hey, sorry for the late answer, I thought I got notification for new replies, but I didn't!
To answer your questions:
1. Yes, you can roll arbitrary dice, with the syntax {1d20+5}
2. Yes, you can post images directly, either via a url links, or uploading the image (and the campaign has a "Media" tab where you can later see all the uploaded images)
3. the roll cannot be previewed, by design. You either roll it or you don't, and when it's rolled it's immutable (you can edit your post and remove the roll, but it will still be visible in the roll "ledger" attached to the post, so people will know you removed it!)
4. not sure I understand what you mean by "alias"? One user can control several characters (you get a dropdown selector in the post section to pick the one you want to speak "as"). Characters are named, so no "alias" here.
Hope it helps! I'll check here more often, so expect a quicker response next time ;)