When casting the Gate spell, and you choose “Calling Creatures” you can opt to call a single creature. In this case, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level.
Suppose I'm a 20th level mythic cleric casting a gate with the Inspired Spell.
This mythic ability allows expending one use of mythic power to cast any one divine spell, treating my caster level as 2 levels higher (22nd in this case).
This allows me to call for a solar (22HD), does it give to me complete control over the creature on the following rounds ? Or should I lose the control, because my caster level is back to my usual 20th ?
Inspired Spell (Su): As a standard action, you can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one divine spell without expending a prepared spell or spell slot. The spell must be on one of your divine class spell lists (or your domain or mystery spell list), must be of a level that you can cast with that divine spellcasting class, and must have a casting time of "1 standard action" (or less). You don’t need to have the spell prepared, nor does it need to be on your list of spells known. When casting a spell in this way, you treat your caster level as 2 levels higher for the purpose of any effect dependent on level. You can apply any metamagic feats you know to this spell, but its total adjusted level can’t be greater than that of the highest-level divine spell you can cast from that spellcasting class.
Gate > Calling Creatures wrote:
...
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time. ...
Due to the specific wording, you would be able to call the creature, as your caster level is two higher 'while casting the spell' and you could call a creature within that range, since that's a parameter/effect determined while casting the spell. It would not be under your control after casting the spell. This is not like parameters set during casting, like duration or range.
This would also apply if then normal use of the spell if you received negative levels or effects that dropped your caster level. The wording of the gate spell does not say 'at the time of casting' for the control. Or in the, admittedly very rare case, that the called creature suddenly gained a level while doing your task and that brought it above your caster level.
Yes, you could call it, but if at any time it is too powerful, you cannot control it. That does not necessarily mean it will attack you or leave immediately. If it's a solar and there's a great evil or other thing right there, it will still likely fight or destroy it first, but it will probably exact a payment or cost (ie. claim all the loot for doing the PCs job) or punishment from the caster, but it's unlikely to seriously harm them unless they're evil.
Pizza Lord, thank you for your answer. I also think it's the most accurate interpretation of the rules. Now, I can tell the player of this character that he has no control after the call, and be certain that I haven't made a big mistake.
And yes, the cleric's is Good, so there shouldn't be any alignment problem with the Solar. But I want the player to understand that if he calls for a Solar, this powerful creature of Good had to be here for a good reason (e.g. fighting a clearly identified and immediate Evil). Otherwise, it will leave and ask to not be disturbed again, unless it's a worthwhile situation.
I have to disagree with Pizza Lord here. Caster level matters when you cast the spell, not at random points afterwards. If your caster level is 22 when you cast this spell, then you can Call and control a 22 HD solar.
Would you say that a magic vestment spell cast with Inspired Spell would run out after 20 hours because the caster level is no longer 22 when you get to the end of the 20th hour? I certainly wouldn't! And the case for gate is even more clear cut, as (when used for Calling) it is an Instantaneous spell.
Maybe I am missing something, but from what I read:
1) Calling a creature is an Instantaneous effect; it doesn't have a duration.
2) The control doesn't have a duration; it seems to be "a reasonable service." There aren't rules about what you can ask, but there are rules for a "longer or more involved form of service".
The spell lacks D20 SRD/3.5 paragraph:
A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.
Without that paragraph, we don't know what a controlled creature will do.
Considering the above, including the missing paragraph, if you are asking for an "immediate task", the spell is an instantaneous effect and what matters is your caster level at the time of the casting.
If you ask for a "longer or more involved form of service", you need to offer a fair price, so your ability to control the creature doesn't matter anymore. What matters is agreeing on a fair payment (and paying it when the job is done).
Would you say that a magic vestment spell cast with Inspired Spell would run out after 20 hours because the caster level is no longer 22 when you get to the end of the 20th hour?
I wouldn't either. In fact, I said that specifically.
Pizza Lord wrote:
This is not like parameters set during casting, like duration or range.
I also wouldn't apply it to a spell cast from a wand or a scroll with a higher caster level than the user in general. But an ability that specifically raises caster level 'during casting' and a spell that specifically states having a higher caster level while doing something else is not the same as casting from a wand or scroll either.
glass wrote:
Caster level matters when you cast the spell, not at random points afterwards. If your caster level is 22 when you cast this spell, then you can Call and control a 22 HD solar.
'Caster level matters when you cast a spell' is certainly true, but we aren't talking about a 'random' point during a spell's duration afterwards. The spell is instantaneous, it calls the creature based on what the caster level is at the time of casting. The end. Any commanding or controlling occurs after the spell is done. It says you can control it if your CL is higher than its HD. It then restates it in a completely separate sentence that a creature with higher HD than your CL cannot be controlled.
Examples in a space saving spoiler:
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If wearing an amulet that lets you command or negotiate with called outsiders as though your CL was 4 higher, and you take it off, you don't count as being 4 caster levels higher while trying to command them. You may be able to issue a command and then take it off and they will work through the command, but that isn't this situation of ability being discussed..
Whether the wording applies in a general sense (like your duration example) isn't an issue, since this is a specific spell's wording and a specific ability's wording in this topic's specific interaction. In this case, the ability allows you to call a creature greater than what you could normally, but that is separate from being able to control it, even if it uses the same metric (caster level), it's different when it's checked. If the negotiation or command were part of the casting of the spell, there might be an argument (or an argument that it's intended instead of written), but it isn't. The spell has a casting, then it has an effect, then it has mechanics for what likely happens and how dealing with the effect is intended. The ability also has a statement of what it does and when and how it does it.
Just like magic vestment's' wording that its enhancement bonus is capped at 20th level applies, whereas another spell might not say that.
If you cast jump and then make a running jump that exceeds your movement, your turn ends and you complete the jump on your next turn. If an ally uses an ability or your jump carried you into an area of effect that increased (or decreased) caster level, it wouldn't apply to your Acrobatics check result, that was already made an determined. You wouldn't fall short or go farther based on your CL that might have otherwise increased your bonus to jumping when cast.
Just like a spell with the wording, 'This spell can't be cast underwater,' is different than 'This spell has no effect underwater'. It depends on the wording in use and other than arguing it was an error of oversight or FAQ clarification and intention.
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TL/DR You can call creatures more powerful than you can control. Being able to call a creature does not guarantee being able to control it.
{edited for brevity & completeness} casting Gate:C9 spell, choose “Calling Creatures” for one extraplanar creature. In this case, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level.
Cleric 20th level mythic 1 casting a gate with Hierophant's Inspired Spell(Su) ability. Allows expending one use of mythic power to cast any one divine spell treating my caster level as 2 levels higher, 22nd in this case.
This allows me to call for a solar (22HD), does it give to me complete control over the creature on the following rounds ? Or should I lose the control, because my caster level is back to my usual 20th ?
You go awry in your last line as you do not literally/completely "control" the creature but {quotes from the spell} is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect) and An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases. Literal control would imply Domination, Magic Jar, or something similar. The term "control" is used as common english where the creature is helpful (attitude) to you and it follows your instructions without expecting additional reward or payment.
So you can cast Gate:C9 [Good] with Inspired to get a (generic) Solar HD:22 CR:23 which will follow your instructions as long as they are reasonable and within its alignment(NG) for 22 rounds.
A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.
Without that paragraph, we don't know what a controlled creature will do.
That's the main problem with this spell. This is 3.5 rulings, and in Pathfinder we do not know the exact level of control over the called creature. Summoned creatures obey orders, bud there is a duration. For Gate there is none. Could this mean you control the creature forever ?
Azothath wrote:
You go awry in your last line as you do not literally/completely "control" the creature but {quotes from the spell} is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect) and An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases. Literal control would imply Domination, Magic Jar, or something similar. The term "control" is used as common english where the creature is helpful (attitude) to you and it follows your instructions without expecting additional reward or payment.
So you can cast Gate:C9 [Good] with Inspired to get a (generic) Solar HD:22 CR:23 which will follow your instructions as long as they are reasonable and within its alignment(NG) for 22 rounds.
English is not my native language, but the term "control" seem relatively clear to me. But in game terms, the lack of precisions is the problem.
If it's domination-like, then the modified level of the caster at the moment of the spell is cast should be used (in my example 22nd). IMO, this requires a duration and a way for the creature to end the effect, otherwise this will mean permanent servitude.
If it's a bargain with the creature, then the level of the caster at the moment of the bargain should be used (in my example 20th) as the spell call the creature, and after the spell is cast, you begin the negotiation.
This should have been better defined in the spell description, as it leaves too much interpretation.
And if the Solar will follow the instructions of the Good cleric as long as they are reasonable and within its alignment, why would the player limit himself with just one Solar when he can call a pair for the same cost ?
This particular situation is very new to me and my players, because after 17+ years of play in the same campaign, they just reached level 20. Having 4 mythic ranks, the cleric and the celestial lineage sorcerer can now both cast gate to call Solars. Even if they only have the components for one casting each, this ability is a potential game-changer. I don't want to cheat my players, so if there is a way to officially avoid unbalancing my game, and I'll be glad to read from you.
Thank you to all people giving helpful advice!
PS : for now, I'll stick to these guidelines.
1. The spell is instantaneous, so calling a Solar with the inspired spell is OK.
2. they have no control over the Solar on the following rounds, because their CL is back to 20th.
3. If the Solar is called for fight clear and present danger (must be a powerful Evil opponent), he stays and enters combat. The price will be negotiated after the fight.
4. If there is no Evil in sight, the Solar tell the player who called him to never disturb him for nothing. He disappears, warning the character to think before acting dumbly. If he is called again for nothing, he'll strip the character of all his possessions.
Of course, the player will be informed, and the opponents have to use the same rulings if they have access to gate.
some explanations (more chat than RAW rules lawyering) -
Azothath wrote:
... as you do not literally/completely "control" the creature but {quotes from the spell} is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect) and An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases. Literal control would imply Domination, Magic Jar, or something similar. The term "control" is used as common english where the creature is helpful (attitude) to you and it follows your instructions without expecting additional reward or payment.
So you can cast Gate:C9 [Good] with Inspired to get a (generic) Solar HD:22 CR:23 which will follow your instructions as long as they are reasonable and within its alignment(NG) for 22 rounds.
...
Gate:C9 has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings.
As you are dealing with high level spells - a lot of Game definitions will be assumptions in how they work. You need to have pretty good System Mastery to adjudicate 7-9th level spells.
I talk about levels and methods of control to address your assertion of compete control, namely;
Verbal Request/Command: controlled and uncontrolled are clarified in the spell description. Uncontrolled do as they please, thus controlled do as you ask (as they cannot read minds or desires).
Verbal Command: Domination confers a forced control based on requests. The forceful part isn't talked about in Gate thus with alignment restrictions and creature type requirements set by the caster one assumes they'd be on somewhat friendly terms and view the caster as an authoritative figure (as they have low HD, aka less powerful).
Literal Control: Magic Jar allows the caster to takeover the body of the target creature, that is literal control. Some powers aren't accessible but the caster can easily get the target's body slain and escape back to theirs without harm.
I reference attitude (see diplomacy skill) as we are talking about requests and commands and getting another creature to do something from about what you want to exactly what you want in a way you desire (management goes from tacit oversight to micromanagement).
There is a published example of a high level wizard bluffing a celestial into protecting an Evil site (Wizards don't have alignment auras) preventing good PCs from cleaning it out. Arcane caster's don't have the alignment issues of divine casters. This shows it can get tricky.
As the spell is cast at 22 caster level than means 22HD is first multiple and 22 rounds of control. That doesn't change after casting.
Notice how I wrote the spell. It is a Good spell for this casting (Evil clerics can't cast it) and Good domain abilities may affect it. The material cost is high so the PC has to expend considerable resources. My Advice for divine sacrifices/offerings is to not let Blood Money spell get around this unless the deity values blood thematically.
Both Gate spell and Inspired are Standard actions. The spell takes a standard action to cast. DO NOT CHANGE THIS as you affect 'Action Economy'.
The called Solar will act for "Good" ignoring Law and Chaos for the most part. He'll fight and die if needed to defeat/suppress Evil without reward as that is his job/duty. Due to HD and spell description he'll work for the caster and do as asked for Good as the caster is a presumed ally, it is not forced but cooperative or deferential. If all the caster needs is some divine healing to eliminate Evil curses/poisons/conditions the Solar will be happy to diminish the effect of Evil on the World and go home satisfied.
Consequences -
this is a problem for divine casters. A betrayed/tricked Solar IS GOING TO REPORT BACK to his superiors (the forces of Good) to warn them of the problem. That could result in a variety of consequences; bad dreams and bad luck for a time to an Alignment infraction. It is very dependent on the action and the deity.
duration - There is a bit of confusion here. The casting is a standard action. (RAW) The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled. but the spell effect only lasts as stated, 22 rounds in this option. After that the creature disappears/goes home. It can only offer its services on the caster's plane for the duration of the spell effect. "control"(however you choose to interpret it) only exists for this time. {The caster at this level could cast Plane Shift and go somewhere else with everyone. The called creature is going to have to make a decision to go or not based on what it knows and a Sense Motive check. These kind of complicated issues are left to the GM to figure out.}
To become familiar with these spells I suggest you read; spell school descriptions(Conjuration) →Magic Basics, Summon Monster, Summon Nature's Ally, and Planar Ally spells.
Be sure I'm perfectly aware of all you have written (even the blood money threads on this forum ;).
I follow the 'action economy' to the letter (with so many feats, spells and powers it's sometimes a real pain).
The players have very good Diplomacy skill levels, so it's quite an easy task for them to convince a Good ally to help them.
With 42 years of gaming, mostly as a GM, I consider myself quite aware of all the problems that are not addressed by the rules.
I agree with your text except for one point : the duration of the control. The one round per level (concentration) is only for the Planar Travel version of the spell. The Calling Creature has a duration of instantaneous, and no text explicitly mention a control duration.
My concern is to clearly define the nature and the duration of this control, as neither are explained in the spell description.
And without these guidelines, I'm wondering why would a caster with the appropriate alignment (and faithful to his church / alignment / deity) will limit himself to call ONE creature (whose maximum HD equals to his CL), while he can have TWO for the same price ?
I feel the spell is poorly written, so unless someone can point me to some rule to resolve this case, I'll take some decisions out of the rules.
My only suggestion is to add the paragraph that was missed in the move from the SRD to Pathfinder.
SRD wrote:
A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.
I suppose it is a typo that was never corrected because it would have changed the formatting of more than half of the Spell section of the rulebook, and few people reach the level where it becomes relevant.
chat -
It is a matter of bargaining (easy) and cash (GM goes *cha-ching*, lol). Using the higher HD means your costs increase rather than a 'mighty' monster summoning at 10k gp... I've also found some players are inordinately risk averse, others the opposite.
At Level N, a N HD creature is CR=APL-2 or so rather than the 'dramatic' CR of APL+3.
I agree that with CRB spells the D&D3.5 text may clarify the spell as PF1 is a spin off (both legally(the OGL statement) and textually). At the time the designers knew the player base was well versed in 3.5 as PF1 was the commercial 3.5 rehash alternative vs DnD4.0.
I suppose it is a typo that was never corrected because it would have changed the formatting of more than half of the Spell section of the rulebook, and few people reach the level where it becomes relevant.
This is very interesting, but I'm not sure that it was just a typo.
The SRD text also mentions different limits for number of HD controlled or called. The changes in PF looks quite deliberate to me.
SRD wrote:
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
With all yours helpful comments, now I clearly see the flaws of the gate spell description and their possible origin.
There won't be any errata or official answers, so we are in the realm of house rules.
I will include Diego Rossi suggestion to use SRD.
I'll tell my players how the spell works at my table and, of course, apply the same rule for NPC.
