Greater shadow and darkness


Advice


Greater shadow has this awesome ability to cast 2nd rank Darkness at will! (Sorry for the spoiler) While being 7th level. When the party is probably close or higher in levels. You see the problem here? :) Whatever should the poor thing do? Apart from wasting actions.

Dark Archive

It is more of a flavor ability, it does good damage and spawning shadows makes it quite dangerous if not dispatched quickly.


Dr. Frank Funkelstein wrote:
It is more of a flavor ability, it does good damage and spawning shadows makes it quite dangerous if not dispatched quickly.

True, but if it's only flavor it's basically the same as a simple Shadow, but stronger. It's boring :(

Also flavor doesn't work if you either can't use it and show it to players or when you use it it does literally nothing when PC's Lights simply suppress darkness the moment it appears. Well, unless you use it against 1st level characters.
I think giving it Darkness appropriately heightened and ranked should help. So, 4th rank one. Or maybe at least 3rd, if 4th too powerful.


It can also use it to Counteract PC Light/light sources w/ reasonable odds. If a PC has memorized the Light Cantrip, yay. But how many casters are carrying it, especially in a PFS game vs. how many Greater Shadows? Where are they spaced? Or is the Darkness pre-cast for when an ally Dispels the party's light?

Or the Dr. pointed out, maybe it's more flavor or meant to be used vs. NPCs or PCs who've been lazy upgrading their light sources. But as you've pointed out, Errenor, it doesn't seem to be intended for standard PC encounters, intentionally unintended. So if you make Darkness applicable, you're beefing the monster up, might need to bump it to 8th level (w/ its other stats too).


Castilliano wrote:
It can also use it to Counteract PC Light/light sources w/ reasonable odds. If a PC has memorized the Light Cantrip, yay. But how many casters are carrying it, especially in a PFS game vs. how many Greater Shadows? Where are they spaced? Or is the Darkness pre-cast for when an ally Dispels the party's light?

I think all casters that don't have darkvision have Light*. And even some that have darkvision have it for their party. My party is lit up like a Christmas tree with two casters which both have it. Don't think that's any different in PFS (even think it's the other way). But it's a campaign. Only one Greater shadow, would be too much for the encounter otherwise.

* There could be exceptions I suppose, but very infrequent. Torches, eternal lights? Definitely not torches, hands are important for everyone. Yeah, I guess in PFS there are wayfinders which are not heightened. Even more reason to have Light for casters.
Castilliano wrote:
Or the Dr. pointed out, maybe it's more flavor or meant to be used vs. NPCs or PCs who've been lazy upgrading their light sources. But as you've pointed out, Errenor, it doesn't seem to be intended for standard PC encounters, intentionally unintended. So if you make Darkness applicable, you're beefing the monster up, might need to bump it to 8th level (w/ its other stats too).

Or maybe it's an error? I think real purely flavor abilities are very rare. Also really don't want to buff numeric stats, it's danger enough. Working Darkness is dangerous, but then cantrips are free and people say they can counteract Darkness (which I still don't completely believe).


Castilliano wrote:
meant to be used vs. NPCs or PCs who've been lazy upgrading their light sources.

Yeah. It works well against parties that use torches or glow rods.

Against a caster with the Light cantrip, it won't work well. The cantrip auto-levels. Trying to cast Darkness to counteract the Light cantrip likely won't be effective.

So if the level 7 Shadow is going up against a level 5 party, the Shadow does have a decent chance to counteract the cantrips - Rank 3 Light vs Rank 2 Darkness. They only need a success on the check.

But if the level 7 Shadow is going up against a level 7 party, or a level 9 party, then the Light cantrips outrank the Darkness. Rank 4 or 5 Light vs Rank 2 Darkness. They would have to crit the check.

You might also be able to get some use out of it against a party that likes to separate. If there is a ranged attacker in the party who likes to hang way back from the front lines, then you may be able to catch some of the party in an area not covered by Light cantrip.

So I guess the usefulness of a Rank 2 Darkness at level 7 depends heavily on the party composition and their choices for light sources.


Errenor wrote:
Working Darkness is dangerous, but then cantrips are free and people say they can counteract Darkness (which I still don't completely believe).

The rules say that it is supposed to work.

The Light cantrip has the Light trait. The Light trait says that spells with the trait can Counteract magical darkness.

The trait also says that you have to target the darkness directly - which most spells aren't capable of doing.

So yes, because of some technicalities regarding spellcasting and valid targets, you can't actually cast the Light cantrip (or most other Light trait spells such as Moonbeam, Moonburst, or Angelic Wings) in a way to actually cause a counteract check.

Granted, some of those Light trait spells (such as Angelic Wings) probably shouldn't be allowed to be cast in a way to target and Counteract a Darkness spell.

But ruling that almost no Light trait spells are usable for doing the thing that the Light trait says that they are supposed to be able to do - feels like a troll ruling.

Where you and your table draw the lines to separate which spells work and which don't is up to your tables individually.


"So I guess the usefulness of a Rank 2 Darkness at level 7 depends heavily on the party composition and their choices for light sources."

Exactly. Within standard encounter ranges against standard parties, the Greater Shadow would be wasting their time casting in combat. But you could have some fun, maybe precast it in a pit so if a PC w/o Light falls in, and so forth.

Before the Remaster I may have wondered if intentional, but Paizo's sat with this (fairly popular) monster a while, and has had similar feedback about even higher level monsters w/ feeble Darkness effects. So they should know by now.

In PF1, Darkness could control the meta as much as the threat of drowning in an undersea campaign. And in early PFS it did so people equipped for it (or even built parties around exploiting it themselves). PF2 fixed this imbalance and made the dark relevant only through the lowest levels. As long as a good caster carries a Light Cantrip, the party's (typically) fine, w/o everybody needing to load up on anti-Darkness items. But in PFS I would never assume there's a caster who carries it (nor that there's always a caster!). Locally, getting a wayfinder does impart a sense that one doesn't need to memorize Light...which would make us susceptible to this. Not even sure a wayfinder could Counteract since it casts it on the wayfinder itself, not the Darkness.

If one does give a Greater Shadow a Heightened version, it should likely be 1/day. Even so it's a gamble how effective it will be, maybe game-changing and maybe a nothing burger; again depending on party composition and light sources. Or a trap or hazard could supply the Darkness, w/ its only XP to reflect the upgrade (and not spend precious creature actions).

Liberty's Edge

The Lightweave Scarf, which is the cheapest Spellheart that casts Light, is level 8 and costs 500 gp.

After reading this thread, Light is now a Must Have cantrip for my PFS casters.


Finoan wrote:
Errenor wrote:
Working Darkness is dangerous, but then cantrips are free and people say they can counteract Darkness (which I still don't completely believe).

The rules say that it is supposed to work.

The Light cantrip has the Light trait. The Light trait says that spells with the trait can Counteract magical darkness.

The trait also says that you have to target the darkness directly - which most spells aren't capable of doing.

So yes, because of some technicalities regarding spellcasting and valid targets, you can't actually cast the Light cantrip (or most other Light trait spells such as Moonbeam, Moonburst, or Angelic Wings) in a way to actually cause a counteract check.

Granted, some of those Light trait spells (such as Angelic Wings) probably shouldn't be allowed to be cast in a way to target and Counteract a Darkness spell.

But ruling that almost no Light trait spells are usable for doing the thing that the Light trait says that they are supposed to be able to do - feels like a troll ruling.

Where you and your table draw the lines to separate which spells work and which don't is up to your tables individually.

Yeah I agree with you on this. It's fair to say "a cantrip can't counteract as a max rank spell" because the resource cost is so wildly different. But some of these other spells probably should work and it's very restrictive that they don't on a technicality.

It's fair of a GM to say "that sounds like it should reasonably be able to counteract so I'll allow it", which also opens up other tricks like using Water spells to attempt to counteract Fire spells because it's thematic.


Finoan wrote:
Against a caster with the Light cantrip, it won't work well. The cantrip auto-levels. Trying to cast Darkness to counteract the Light cantrip likely won't be effective.

That is one problem. But the most serious one is that higher ranked Light just suppresses any lower ranked Darkness without any counteracting. And this is beyond all doubt an iron-clad rule. So even if Darkness counteracts Light, the next turn a caster casts Light (without counteracting anything) and Light just shines through Darkness as if it didn't exist.

Finoan wrote:

The Light cantrip has the Light trait. The Light trait says that spells with the trait can Counteract magical darkness.

The trait also says that you have to target the darkness directly - which most spells aren't capable of doing.

So yes, because of some technicalities regarding spellcasting and valid targets, you can't actually cast the Light cantrip (or most other Light trait spells such as Moonbeam, Moonburst, or Angelic Wings) in a way to actually cause a counteract check.

Granted, some of those Light trait spells (such as Angelic Wings) probably shouldn't be allowed to be cast in a way to target and Counteract a Darkness spell.

But ruling that almost no Light trait spells are usable for doing the thing that the Light trait says that they are supposed to be able to do - feels like a troll ruling.

Where you and your table draw the lines to separate which spells work and which don't is up to your tables individually.

Yes, it's exactly that old discussion. With the problem apart from targeting being allowing cantrips to counteract slotted Darkness.

Oh, btw Dispel Magic definitely works on Darkness.
And another thing with traits - I think they are not always correctly and accurately written. For example Illusion definitely doesn't allow to disbelieve any illusion, only those for which it's written in the spell.

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