| Randall Metscher |
Hello,
My AV group had a situation come up and I don't know the answer.
A character cast Wall of Fire which has the concentration trait.
My understanding of the rule is that the spell lasts until the casting character's next turn. (Cast turn 1, ends after turn 2.) If the character wants to sustain the spell into turn 3, he would have to expend an action during turn 2.
In our case, another character wanted to run through the wall of fire and the caster wanted to drop concentration to permit him to do so without taking damage.
Is dropping concentration an action, which would only be available on his next turn, or a free action that can be taken any time?
Thank you.
| Castilliano |
Concentrate is only in regards to the casting and is not connected to Sustain. With Wall of Fire, no further concentrating required.
What you're describing is more "Duration: Sustained" which Wall of Fire does not have; the spell lasts one minute no matter what the caster does, even die (unless the PC actively dispels or counteracts their own spell with a separate resource). Spells which require a Sustain action only fade away when the PC's turn elapses without having taking the Sustain action; no hastening that. Also, many spells can be Dismissed, but have to say so, taking an action; yet again, this doesn't apply to Wall of Fire.
ETA: Oh my, I hope you haven't been running all Concentration spells like that up to these levels!
| Finoan |
Another example spell to look at would be Invisibility Curtain.
Invisibility Curtain doesn't have the Concentrate trait (it is a legacy spell and was written when spellcasting was done with Verbal, Somatic, Material, and Focus components instead of having the Manipulate and/or Concentrate traits). It does have a Duration of Sustained.
So Invisibility Curtain will behave more like what you are describing: The spell is cast on one round, and then each round after that the caster has to spend an action concentrating on the spell (the sustain action) in order to keep the effect going. If they don't then the spell ends at the end of their turn.
As for dismissing the spell, by RAW the spell needs to list that it is able to be dismissed. For example, Murderous Vine does so.
It is reasonable for a GM to relax that rule and allow a caster to dismiss spells by default unless there is a good reason for a spell to not be able to be dismissed.
Do note that dismissing the spell does not mean that the spell's effect is only temporarily suppressed. Dismissing a spell means that the effect ends entirely and permanently. So even with the houserule to allow you to dismiss Wall of Fire, you couldn't turn it off for one round to allow your friend to run through the area and then turn it back on again later. If you dismiss Wall of Fire, then it is gone. You would have to spend another spell slot and cast it again to get it back.
| Errenor |
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It is reasonable for a GM to relax that rule and allow a caster to dismiss spells by default unless there is a good reason for a spell to not be able to be dismissed.
I think I know the universal good reason to not allow dismissing unless it's stated. To make spells a bit more narratively important: this way you have to think about the situation more. If you set a Wall of Fire poorly and situation changed - you burn. And your party probably too. This makes spells more frustrating sometimes, but I think it's worth it.
| Finoan |
I think I know the universal good reason to not allow dismissing unless it's stated. To make spells a bit more narratively important: this way you have to think about the situation more. If you set a Wall of Fire poorly and situation changed - you burn. And your party probably too. This makes spells more frustrating sometimes, but I think it's worth it.
Also very reasonable.
| Randall Metscher |
Thanks for the replies.
We are learning PF2e together, so as long as I am trying to sort things out, the group is fine with mistakes. Sustaining spells really hasn't come up to this point. The players are more oriented to kill it and kill it quickly, in every conceivable encounter.
I hadn't realized concentrate is interpreted differently based on the spell. I'll pay more attention going forward.
To Errenor, I agree wholeheartedly about casters needing to think ahead.
| Errenor |
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I hadn't realized concentrate is interpreted differently based on the spell. I'll pay more attention going forward.
Concentrate is NOT interpreted differently based on the spell! It's always the same. Again, do not mix up concentrate and sustained. The former is a common trait on almost all spells which means what it says and that some rules interact with it (forbidding such spells or reacting to them for example). The latter is a type of duration for some spells, it means the spell lasts until the end of your next turn unless you use the Sustain action on that turn.
It feels that you mix up with Dnd5e. It's a completely different 'concentrate'.| Finoan |
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Yeah, there are plenty of actions that are not spells that also have the Concentrate trait. Some common examples are Recall Knowledge, Ready, and Barbarian: Rage.
The trait has nearly no rules associated with it on its own. Arguably, a Mindless creature couldn't use a Concentrate action.
Other than that, you are looking for specific actions that are going to reference the trait. Such as the Barbarian: Rage ability that prevents using actions with the Concentrate trait, or the Inventor: Distracting Explosion reaction that triggers on an enemy using a Concentrate action.
Dr. Frank Funkelstein
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As a D&D5-convert myself i can understand the mixup, no need to apologize for learning the rules and asking questions!
You got some good explainations already. The concentrate-tag can mostly be ignored, there are a few rare cases where it counts, for example a raging Barbarian cannot use actions with this trait (unless they take a feat and pay an action tax, moment of clarity), or a Thaumaturge with a weapon implement could react to it.
Sustain is the "D&D-contentrate", but more flexible - you can sustain multiple spells, there are ways to sustain for free, but usually it costs you one of your precious three actions.
| Errenor |
Yeah, there are plenty of actions that are not spells that also have the Concentrate trait. Some common examples are Recall Knowledge, Ready, and Barbarian: Rage.
Yes, this is important, forgot to mention it.
Sustain is the "D&D-contentrate", but more flexible - you can sustain multiple spells, there are ways to sustain for free, but usually it costs you one of your precious three actions.
And Sustain is only on spells that need it and can handle it. Not on frigging everything like in 5e. I hated it and 5e magic in very large part because of it. Ugh.
Sustain is completely ok.