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The former was actually mentioned in the survey, but rather than stunts involving Athletics or Acrobatics, using other skills might actually open up more possibilities for character builds. I understand that this idea is difficult to implement, since the Daring Stunt available from the start can only be used with Athletics.
I’d like to propose something that uses the Thievery skill (like a Dirty trick). I thought that combining this with Acrobatics stunts would expand the possibilities for Dexterity builds, which previously didn’t seem very appealing.
Regarding the latter, here are the points that have been bothering me:
・All stunts that move the target should grant Forced Movement. There are currently limited ways to deal stunt damage.
・The Press trait should be removed from most stunt feats. It doesn’t make sense that they can’t be used until the second action or later. Additionally, wouldn’t it make more sense to change “action with the Press trait” in Audacious Combatant to “action with the Daredevil trait”? This would also prevent overpowered builds resulting from combining these abilities with other archetypes or class abilities.
・Remove the size requirements for most stunts. Ever since the 1st edition, there have been plenty of creatures larger than the character (and even more so at higher levels), so I don’t understand why there’s a restriction. Alternatively, it might be good to gradually ease the restrictions using auto-scaling.
・Since some Stunt feats, such as grapples or trips, involve specific combat maneuvers while others do not, they should all be granted equally. Currently, there is a tendency for Stunt success rates to vary depending on whether the character is unarmed or using a weapon with the Agile trait.
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yokyu14 wrote: ・Remove the size requirements for most stunts. Ever since the 1st edition, there have been plenty of creatures larger than the character (and even more so at higher levels), so I don’t understand why there’s a restriction. Alternatively, it might be good to gradually ease the restrictions using auto-scaling. I think this is the most important thing that needs to be fixed. Size restrictions only result in potential situations where a DD just isn't able to work at all, and the class clearly isn't strong enough to compensate for that, not like I would want that even if the class was strong enough to compensate.
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I had my own thoughts about Dirty Trick in the form of a 1st-level daredevil feat.
Thieves' Trick Feat 1
Daredevil
A daredevil will boldly pulling off sleight of hand. You become trained in Thievery (if you are already trained in Thievery, you become trained in another skill) and learn the Dirty Trick skill feat. You can use Dirty Trick instead of Grapple, Reposition, Shove, or Trip during Daring Stunt.
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I agree with pretty much all of the recommendations made in the OP. The Daredevil really doesn't need their own mechanics to get in the way of basic functionality for the class, and it seems Paizo's acknowledged this as well in a recent blog post.
I wrote a proof of concept for a Daredevil rework to illustrate what kinds of things I'd like to see out of the class, and a lot of it aligns with the OP's suggestions:
* The way I implemented stunt damage basically just requires you to make a skill attack and have the enemy end up near a creature or terrain feature. If you're Grappling someone near a wall, you basically slam them into the wall and make an unarmed attack against them. If you're pulling a Dirty Trick, you might be tripping them up into that obstacle for the same result.
* I removed the press trait from most feats and applied it only where it would make sense, e.g. Headsmash requiring a creature grabbed or restrained. Additionally, I changed the Daredevil's MAP reduction so that it applies to all agile attacks, meaning your Athletics maneuvers of any kind and Dirty Tricks benefit from it.
* I gave the Daredevil the Titan Wrestler feat for free and basically had the feature that gives it state you ignore size requirements for maneuvers entirely. Additionally, I changed the Daredevil's feats to use actual Athletics actions instead of the pseudo-maneuvers they keep trying to build from scratch, so that they integrate better with existing game mechanics.
In addition to the above, which ought to make Dirty Trick synergize much better with the Daredevil, I've added a feat that specifically caters to it:
Entangling Trick (One Action, Feat 2)
Traits: Daredevil
Prerequisites: Dirty Trick
You entangle two adjacent opponents’ limbs, clothing, or equipment. Attempt Dirty Tricks against two creatures adjacent to each other, each using a different free hand; both attempts must succeed or else neither target becomes clumsy. If either creature attempts a move action while clumsy from Entangling Trick, each creature must succeed at a Reflex save against your Thievery DC or fall and drop prone. Either target can end the clumsy condition for both creatures with a single Interact or move action.
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Effectively, you do the equivalent of tying two opponents' shoelaces together to make them both trip and fall, with action compression as well for doing multiple Dirty Tricks in one ago. Additionally, the above synergizes with the reworked features mentioned in the above document, such that you can make a d6 fist Strike against an opponent you successfully use a Dirty Trick against. The tradeoff to all this is that you increase your MAP with each Dirty Trick and attack you make, would need two free hands for the above, and would need to succeed on both checks for the whole thing to work, but you'd get at least two additional actions to do plenty more at the higher risk of a -6 MAP!
Teridax wrote: I agree with pretty much all of the recommendations made in the OP. The Daredevil really doesn't need their own mechanics to get in the way of basic functionality for the class, and it seems Paizo's acknowledged this as well in a recent blog post.
I wrote a proof of concept for a Daredevil rework to illustrate what kinds of things I'd like to see out of the class, and a lot of it aligns with the OP's suggestions:
* The way I implemented stunt damage basically just requires you to make a skill attack and have the enemy end up near a creature or terrain feature. If you're Grappling someone near a wall, you basically slam them into the wall and make an unarmed attack against them. If you're pulling a Dirty Trick, you might be tripping them up into that obstacle for the same result.
* I removed the press trait from most feats and applied it only where it would make sense, e.g. Headsmash requiring a creature grabbed or restrained. Additionally, I changed the Daredevil's MAP reduction so that it applies to all agile attacks, meaning your Athletics maneuvers of any kind and Dirty Tricks benefit from it.
* I gave the Daredevil the Titan Wrestler feat for free and basically had the feature that gives it state you ignore size requirements for maneuvers entirely. Additionally, I changed the Daredevil's feats to use actual Athletics actions instead of the pseudo-maneuvers they keep trying to build from scratch, so that they integrate better with existing game mechanics.
In addition to the above, which ought to make Dirty Trick synergize much better with the Daredevil, I've added a feat that specifically caters to it:
Entangling Trick (One Action, Feat 2)
Traits: Daredevil
Prerequisites: Dirty Trick
You entangle two adjacent opponents’ limbs, clothing, or equipment. Attempt Dirty Tricks against two creatures adjacent to each other, each using a different free hand; both attempts must succeed or...
My only thing is that Caroming Charge didn't need the flourish trait, just the same indication you can only smack one person per time you run through their space. I also am totally bamboozled by why on earth you reduced the die size for Pressing Pummel; it's not unbalanced, it's Vicious Swing flavored for Daredevils. I also don't see why you have to not embrace the press bit, just that the reduction in MAP should work on all Agile strikes since you're giving up some damage to get agile in almost every single situation. I also noticed you removed Daring Stunt and didn't replace it; I get it's a tad powerful out the gate, but I think it works nicely for starting a turn as you have to dash into a situation to get the bonuses and you still get the free maneuver which is very nice action compression for effectively free.
Flames of Chaos wrote: My only thing is that Caroming Charge didn't need the flourish trait, just the same indication you can only smack one person per time you run through their space. I also am totally bamboozled by why on earth you reduced the die size for Pressing Pummel; it's not unbalanced, it's Vicious Swing flavored for Daredevils. I also don't see why you have to not embrace the press bit, just that the reduction in MAP should work on all Agile strikes since you're giving up some damage to get agile in almost every single situation. I also noticed you removed Daring Stunt and didn't replace it; I get it's a tad powerful out the gate, but I think it works nicely for starting a turn as you have to dash into a situation to get the bonuses and you still get the free maneuver which is very nice action compression for effectively free. I'll be happy to answer these in order:
* Caroming Charge includes a significant amount of relatively unconditional action compression, letting you move through the space of multiple enemies in one go and damage them as well. This is exacerbated in the vanilla version, which for two actions lets you Stride twice, automatically lets you move through the space of every enemy (so it's better than two Tumble Throughs), an also automatically damages every enemy you move through. This is absolutely the kind of thing that would get the flourish trait, as with Barreling Charge.
* I reduced Pressing Pummel's action cost from two to one, a massive buff, and you still deal that d10 if your MAP is maxed out. Even a d6 would match Vicious Swing's damage given how this version of the Daredevil is pushed to use agile weapons.
* The MAP reduction on agile Strikes is significantly more versatile than the current audacious combatant feature, as it works even on actions that aren't press feats or even Daredevil feats, such as regular Athletics maneuvers and Dirty Trick. The current feature effectively forces feats to have the press trait just so that they can synergize with it, which is why the vanilla Daredevil has so many press feats that really don't feel like they should be press feats.
* Daring Stunt on the Daredevil is currently necessary because the Daredevil needs a way to gain adrenaline and has no built-in action compression. The above Daredevil, by contrast, doesn't have adrenaline as a mechanic and gets action compression built into their class features, plus better use of actions that don't come from their feats, so the action isn't necessary. If the Daredevil needs more to do, I'd be happy to give them an extra action or feat at level 1, but in my playtesting the variant version did pretty well without needing that.
Teridax wrote: * I reduced Pressing Pummel's action cost from two to one, a massive buff, and you still deal that d10 if your MAP is maxed out. Even a d6 would match Vicious Swing's damage given how this version of the Daredevil is pushed to use agile weapons. ・Since the third multiple attack penalty (-6 or -8) from Audacious Combatant isn’t functioning properly, it’s better to reduce the number of actions for the Press trait.
New Proposed Changes
・Stunts and combat maneuvers that move the target are increased to 10 feet on a normal success.
・Daring stunts: Replace “You Stride or Leap.” with “You can Stride or Leap.”
・Flying Hurdle Stunt: Change the critical success text to: “The target is moved up to 10 feet into the space you just left. If there isn’t enough space, the target doesn’t move, and if that movement is interrupted by a prop, you take stunt damage. Then you move to a square adjacent to the target. Your movement doesn’t trigger a reaction. You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to melee strikes against the target until the beginning of your next turn.”
・Rebounding Fall Stunt: Remove “You can’t Stand until your next turn.” from the critical failure text.
・Add critical effects (such as double damage) to Stunt Damage.
A rough outline of the new stunt (Reaction)
(Risky trait)
Trigger: You are attacked by an enemy within range.
You reduce your AC against the triggering attack (like off-guard or clumsy). Depending on the result of that attack, you receive the following effects.
Failure: You attempt a combat maneuver.
Critical Failure: As failure, but you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to the roll.
Recent threads in Daredevil Class Discussion
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