Hello everyone!
I’ve recently started learning the spellcasting rules in Pathfinder 2e, coming from Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition, and I’m still trying to fully understand how everything works.
My English isn’t very strong, so I’m using a translator for this post—please forgive me if I misuse any system-specific terms.
As I understand it, there is a general rule for Targets:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2240
“Some spells allow you to target a creature, an object, or something more specific. The target must be within the spell's range, **and you must be able to see it** (or otherwise perceive it with a precise sense) to target it. At the GM's discretion, you can attempt to target a creature you can't see, as described in Detecting Creatures on page 434. If you fail to target a particular creature, this doesn't change how the spell affects any other targets the spell has.”
However, some spells explicitly state that you must see the target. For example:
Force Barrage https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1536
“You fire a shard of solidified magic toward a creature that you can see.”
(There are probably more such spells — if you mention any in your answers, that would be awesome!)
My question is specifically about the requirement “a creature that you can see.” What happens in the following cases?
Questions:
What happens if the target is Hidden?
Do you need to roll a DC 11 flat check?
Or does “specific beats general” apply, making it impossible to use such a spell at all?
What happens if the target is Concealed?
Do you need to roll a DC 5 flat check?
If a spell explicitly requires you to see the target, then you can only ever use it against an observed target, meaning you must sense it with vision or some other precise sense.
If it doesn't explicitly say so but specifically targets a creature instead of an area, the GM can either say no or allow targeting the hidden creature with a DC 11 flat check. If it's undetected, you also need to guess the square.
While concealed does impose a DC 5 flat check, you can still observe a concealed creature. Targeting an observed creature requires no GM fiat, though you still make the DC 5 flat check if it's also concealed.
The rule itself says that it is up to the GM and the table to determine for each scenario if a hidden creature is 'seen' enough to target with spells.
At the GM's discretion, you can attempt to target a creature you can't see, as described in Detecting Creatures.
For my own ruling ideas:
I would allow targeting if the enemy is Hidden using Hide or Create a Diversion and I know what space they are in. This is because there is a decent chance (governed mechanically by the DC 11 flat check) that the caster can see enough of the enemy to target them.
I wouldn't allow it if the caster is blinded or if they don't have Line of Sight.
I also wouldn't allow the targeting (and wouldn't allow the DC 11 flat check) if the enemy is Unobserved and the caster is having to guess what square they are in. At that point in the narrative, the caster can't see the enemy at all.
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I also wouldn't allow the targeting (and wouldn't allow the DC 11 flat check) if the enemy is Unobserved and the caster is having to guess what square they are in. At that point in the narrative, the caster can't see the enemy at all.
With a sword you can select a square where you think it might be, i would allow the same with a spell.
If you selected the wrong square, no dice.If it is the correct one, DC 11 (aka 50/50).
I also wouldn't allow the targeting (and wouldn't allow the DC 11 flat check) if the enemy is Unobserved and the caster is having to guess what square they are in. At that point in the narrative, the caster can't see the enemy at all.With a sword you can select a square where you think it might be, i would allow the same with a spell.
If you selected the wrong square, no dice.
If it is the correct one, DC 11 (aka 50/50).
This is what I do since I like that it's consistent with the strike rule. If a player wants to make a guess? Go for it. It's either a wasted spell or a very cool moment.
It's not strict RAW, but I don't care because it's fun. :)
I also wouldn't allow the targeting (and wouldn't allow the DC 11 flat check) if the enemy is Unobserved and the caster is having to guess what square they are in. At that point in the narrative, the caster can't see the enemy at all.With a sword you can select a square where you think it might be, i would allow the same with a spell.
If you selected the wrong square, no dice.
If it is the correct one, DC 11 (aka 50/50).
For a spell that says "Target: 1 creature", sure.
For a spell that says "Target: 1 creature you can see", I wouldn't go for it.
But it is fine to disagree on this point. Each table can run differently in this case.
What about a spell like:
Targets 1 creature
You fire <something> toward a creature that you can see.
? :)
With Force Barrage and the line about seeing being in the description rather than the targeting line, I am going to be a lot more lenient on it.