Ive been having problems with the rules on ally duration when they receive the Weapon Warriors weapon song ability. I could really use some direct answers please because it's bugging me.
1: Now does the duration for allies taking the weapon song effect last until the end of their turn? or does it stay active on them until I am done with the weapon song ability or something happens to where I can't use the ability?
2: Does it wear off at the end of an opponent's turn then they have to wait to decide if they want to accept it again?
Apparently I need the creators or the rules board team to get the answer or nothing will change.
HOW exactly does the ability read?
I think they are stuck on this part...
If a raging song affects allies, when the skald begins a raging song and at the start of each ally’s turn in which they can hear the raging song, the skald’s allies must decide whether to accept or refuse its effects. (Which I dont think is right for the weapon song)
or is it flat out this...
The bonus and special abilities granted by this raging song are determined when the song begins, and cannot be changed until the raging song ends and another is begun. (I believe that their ability isnt read like the skald's raging song and their duration reads like mine replacing the ability.)
Im sorry if this is confusing.
I hate to bug on such an OLD question.....But it is what it is.
Skald arch Spell Warrior
There are a lot of restrictions in the Skald class about loaned raging powers and prerequisites.
Spell Warrior, bottom of Enhanced Weapons(Su) ...
The bonus and special abilities granted by this raging song are determined when the song begins, and cannot be changed until the raging song ends and another is begun.(on the skald's turn) These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. This ability replaces the inspired rage raging song. so it is running on the skald's initiative and when he stops or changes, it stops or changes.
It replaces inspired rage raging song so those rules are ignored.
Azothath wrote: Skald arch Spell Warrior
There are a lot of restrictions in the Skald class about loaned raging powers and prerequisites.
Spell Warrior, bottom of Enhanced Weapons(Su) ...
The bonus and special abilities granted by this raging song are determined when the song begins, and cannot be changed until the raging song ends and another is begun.(on the skald's turn) These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. This ability replaces the inspired rage raging song. so it is running on the skald's initiative and when he stops or changes, it stops or changes.
Thank you sooo much, really. done me a favor.
I've Flagged your other post as a "double post".
Azothath wrote: Skald arch Spell Warrior
There are a lot of restrictions in the Skald class about loaned raging powers and prerequisites.
Spell Warrior, bottom of Enhanced Weapons(Su) ...
The bonus and special abilities granted by this raging song are determined when the song begins, and cannot be changed until the raging song ends and another is begun.(on the skald's turn) These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. This ability replaces the inspired rage raging song. so it is running on the skald's initiative and when he stops or changes, it stops or changes.
It replaces inspired rage raging song so those rules are ignored.
Azothath is leaving out important information regarding this ability and the reason why our GM ruled the way he did.
The Skald Raging Song ability says this:
Quote: Raging Song (Su)
A skald is trained to use music, oration, and similar performances to inspire his allies to feats of strength and ferocity. At 1st level, a skald can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. For each level thereafter, he can use raging song for 2 additional rounds per day.
Starting a raging song is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. A raging song cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the skald is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action each round to maintain it. A raging song counts as the bard’s bardic performance special ability for any effect that affects bardic performances. A skald may learn bard masterpieces.
A raging song has audible components, but not visual components. Affected allies must be able to hear the skald for the song to have any effect. A deaf skald has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use a raging song. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Deaf creatures are immune to raging songs.
If a raging song affects allies, when the skald begins a raging song and at the start of each ally’s turn in which they can hear the raging song, the skald’s allies must decide whether to accept or refuse its effects. This is not an action. Unconscious allies automatically accept the song. If accepted, the raging song’s effects last for that ally’s turn or until the song ends, whichever comes first.
Specifically this line:
**If accepted, the raging song’s effects last for that ally’s turn or until the song ends, whichever comes first.**
The Spell Warrior Weapon Song says this:
Quote: Weapon Song (Su)
A spell warrior gains the following raging song, allowing him to grant his ally’s weapons enhancement bonuses and special powers.
Enhance Weapons (Su) At 1st level, the spell warrior can grant a +1 enhancement bonus to the weapons (including ammunition) of allies within 60 feet. At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, this enhancement bonus increases by 1. The maximum bonus gained is based upon the number of weapons affected: +5 to one weapon, +4 to two weapons, +3 to three weapons, or +2 to four or more weapons. Fifty pieces of ammunition count as one weapon for this purpose. The wielder of a weapon enhanced by this raging song counts as if he were under the effect of an inspired rage raging song for all purposes involving the skald’s rage powers.
These bonuses can also be used to add any of the following weapon special abilities to the weapons enhanced by this ability: dancing, defending, distance, flaming, frost, ghost touch, keen, mighty cleaving, returning, shock, seeking, or speed. Adding these weapon special abilities consumes an amount of bonus equal to the special ability’s cost (see Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities). These enhancement bonuses and special abilities overlap with any enhancements or special abilities the weapon already has, though duplicate special abilities do not stack. If an affected weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other special abilities can be.
The bonus and special abilities granted by this raging song are determined when the song begins, and cannot be changed until the raging song ends and another is begun. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon.
This ability replaces the inspired rage raging song.
This line:
**The bonus and special abilities granted by this raging song are determined when the song begins, and cannot be changed until the raging song ends and another is begun. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon.**
Doesn't invalidate the line from the Raging Song class feature (of which the Weapon Song falls under.) and is why the GM ruled the way he did. This line ONLY states that the bonuses or features you add to weapon (Or weapons, since the bonuses you give are based off the number of weapons you are enhancing.) can't change round-to-round and are locked-in when you first start the song and can only change when you start a new song.
While we both disagree with the ruling, by RAW the Weapon Song still has to follow the original rules regarding raging Song. Which is why Des is looking for a more Official ruling.
I agree with your RAW, but, it is one of those cases where specific rules in lower section overcome more general rules in previous sections. Review 'specific trumps general' topic. I'm not actively/intentionally parsing RAW, the rule is there and that's all there is to it.
There are 3 FAQs on ACG Rage power use & Skald, none hit this particular one.
Commentary
Having a weapon buff last a bit longer isn't a bad thing, the problem is consistency. If +(1d6)[fire] (Skald changes it) becomes +(1d6)[acid]. After the skald's turn a delayed ending would imply +(1d6)[fire] and +(1d6)[acid] which is not balanced. So the lower paragraph adjusted it.
Secondly stopping is changing.
Again, letting abilities run into the last affected creatures turn effective adds almost a round to the abilities duration, and without a save (as some spells can linger in an analogous way). It is also why spell saves happen at the beginning (sometimes end) of a creature's turn. It just has to be consistent after an initial (immediate) save. There are many cases where a wizard doesn't get a round of effect out of a spell as the target makes its save at the start of its round. The caster lives and moves on to cast on his next round.
I don't have a problem with a GM allowing this buff to linger into the end of a last creature affected IF the bard ran out of performance/rage rounds and had to stop. It's a Game. GM arbitration is required. It is clearly Home Game territory. Just remember there's RAW and then Home Game GM ruling to iron out the wrinkles in RAW or make it more fun for his players.
Their DM here. How the player had been running it was doing an active Raging Song as a standard(now a move thanks to levelling) then stopping immediately to let Lingering song carry it while only using 1 round of rage song. They are using Weaponsong as the main ability to buff allies, and using the Rage powers as riders to grant other bonuses like Lesser Celestial Totem and Lesser Draconic Blood.
Though I looked into their class abilities about this, and found that it looks like it shouldn't function that way. Per Skald:
- Raging Song
If a raging song affects allies, when the skald begins a raging song and at the start of each ally’s turn in which they can hear the raging song, the skald’s allies must decide whether to accept or refuse its effects. This is not an action. Unconscious allies automatically accept the song. If accepted, the raging song’s effects last for that ally’s turn or until the song ends, whichever comes first.
Notably the last point, as described above. "the raging song’s effects last for that ally’s turn or until the song ends, whichever comes first" Meaning that you rage song, then it's in effect until the allies turn, then only until after their turn is over.
So the Turn order goes something like: Skald song triggers on the Skald's Turn, lasts until the ally ends their turn, Then on the beginning of their next turn, they pick to accept or reject it, keep it for their turn, then it drops at the end of turn again.
Now with that said, they are using Spell warrior to replace Inspired Rage with Weapon song, which is a sub under Raging song. So all Raging song restrictions apply unless otherwise stated. Weapon song allows the bonus to weapons while allies stay in 60ft. It allows you to apply the usual Rage powers to it as well explicitly, and otherwise just states that you have to pick the bonuses granted by the song when the song starts, and you are stuck with those bonuses until you start another song to change it.(And that it applies only to 1 end of a double weapon)
"The bonus and special abilities granted by this raging song are determined when the song begins, and cannot be changed until the raging song ends and another is begun."
SO, while Weird, I ruled that at least by RAW with no other clarification, that raging song bonuses apply to the first round it's activated until the allies turn, then only on their turn until it's over or it's reactivated. This makes certain rage powers much less effective, but has others shine a little better. Like Beast Totem's +Natural armor buff only applies on your turn, so only useful for AoO's, but Superstition now also only applies on your turn, so you don't have to make saves against allies effects when it's not your turn, etc.
Commentary
Kiba Kurokage wrote: Their DM here. ... it's fine. Just try to be as fair and consistent as you can. I just explain RAW as best I can here.
Should you follow RAW? yes. Should you follow it exactly? you can't all the time. there are corner cases, inconsistencies, and undefined areas. A GM has a game to run and people will always have slightly different ideas as to what the exact details are. There will always be some variance in Home Games.
I tend to be a bit formal in my Rules forum posts as you get a lot of blowback and people love to tell you how your wrong. I try to separate Rules and Advice/Commentary sections. The hardest thing is to separate what is RAW from your own Home Game ideas on RAW. I also advocate people read and follow most of the PFS Rulings as they did a lot of good work that makes the GMs job easier.
Kiba Kurokage wrote: Their DM here. How the player had been running it was doing an active Raging Song as a standard(now a move thanks to levelling) then stopping immediately to let Lingering song carry it while only using 1 round of rage song. There is no need to "stop" a song to benefit from Lingering song. The bard simply chose not to maintain it at the start of his next round.
The bard will still use only one round of bard song.
Quote: Lingering Performance
Source Advanced Player's Guide pg. 164
The effects of your bardic performance carry on, even after you have stopped performing.
Prerequisites: Bardic performance class feature.
Benefit: The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.
RAW, Lingering performance trumps the limitation on the Skald Rage song, as it is a specific ability granted by a feat. Those can go against the general rule of the ability they modify.
There is the awkward part where it affects the character choice, too. If he accepts the Rage song buff, it lasts 3 rounds, without the chance to change his choice.
The best option seems to be to consider the intent of the feat, not the wording. The performance linger, not its effect on people. If we do that, the effect ends at the end of a character's turn, and the next turn, if the skald is still performing or Lingering performance is in effect, he gets to choose again.
Personally, I think it is better to allow Weapon Song effect to last till the next round of the affected character (unless the Skald switches songs), as changing weapon abilities and properties every time a character stat and end a turn is a bit of a hassle.
Commentary
Diego Rossi wrote: ...
Personally, I think it is better to allow Weapon Song effect to last till the next round of the affected character (unless the Skald switches songs)...
It would have been nice if RAW has finessed the wording of performance to say that for skalds and to apply it to Rage powers with GM approval. IMO bards/skalds need a bit of a boost, barbarians don't (as we are dealing with Rage powers). Hindsight...
Lingering Performance is there to save rounds of performance at the cost of no new performances and just extend an effect.
Sorry for any confusion. Yes, by "Stop" I just meant "Doesn't spend rounds to continue" Which is why the events described are "Song starts, everyone gets benefits, until their turns, where it stops at the end of their turn" The effect lasts on them until the end of their turn. So in effect, those that go right after the Skald get the least benefit, but those that go after the enemies, and after the skald, get to maintain the benefits during that first turn.
And I was very much on the side that the skald gets the effects for the entire duration, as the wording seems to imply that if it affects allies, THEY lose the benefit at the end of the turn, while the base ability on the skald themselves sticks like a normal rage ability. And this also means that the base Weaponsong stays active for the duration of that performance, and thus, cannot be changed until a new song is started.
And I Was mostly basing the above on the wording in Lingering performance, that says that the song lasts for 2 more rounds after stopping, but all other prerequisites still apply, such as distance. So the effect that it ends for the ally at the end of the turn, but comes back next round, as if the Skald was continuing the raging song, made sense to me.
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