question regarding slow + stun after latest errata


Rules Discussion


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So normaly stun overwrites slow at the start of the turn, right? Which means you trigger the stunned value, reduce the amount of actions regain, then substract that from the slow value, and trigger whatever slow is left if any to further reduce the actions regained.

But happens now if a creature was let's say slowed 1 at the begining of their turn, so you already only have 2 actions left and then get stunned 1 in the middle of their own turn? According to the errata the stunned should now remove the amount of actions you have currently left and since slowed already triggered at the begining of the turn the creature can't retroactively get the action from slowed back right? Essentially allowing slow and stunned to stack for that turn.

Also if it really works that way what would be the ruling advise on that? Keep it as it is, still retroactively compare the stun to the slow, or delay the stun until next turn?


The simplest way to handle it is the way it would have been handled had they been stunned at the start of the turn. Pay an action and move on. If the action was already paid because they're slowed, then count that the same way you would have and move on.

The whole idea of the errata is to not treat "stunned during your own turn" as a weird case that behaves drastically differently from getting stunned at any other time. Go with the spirit of that.


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If you get stunned during your turn, that is because you did something that provoked a reaction that causes stunned.

If you do that while already slowed, that is kinda harsh, yes. RAW would be that you could pay your third action (you lost your first to Slowed at the start of your turn, then spent your second doing something that provoked) to remove the Stunned immediately so that you could use your reactions during the time before your next turn.

That is probably how I would run it. This is something that is going to happen very, very rarely. And it requires an opponent having an ability to inflict Stunned as a reaction. The opponent is paying additional build cost getting that ability, it should have some meaningful effect.

Other GMs may think that this is too much and relax the strict RAW ruling.


Oh, so Slow stacks with Mind Games? Good to know, tehehehe. >:-D


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Theaitetos wrote:
Oh, so Slow stacks with Mind Games?

??

Not following here. What am I missing?

Mind Games is not cast as a reaction. If your opponent is Slowed 1 and you cast Mind Games on them during your turn and they get Stunned 1, then they are going to resolve that at the start of their turn as normal. Pay one (non-stacking) action to both Slowed 1 and Stunned 1 and have two actions left.

Unless you are talking about casting the spell yourself while Slowed 1 and the target crit succeeding at the save. But at that point you are playing Mind Games and winning Mind Prizes. Also, you would have lost one action at the start of your turn to Slowed 1 and already spent your remaining two actions for the turn. You don't have an action left to pay off Stunned 1 early before the start of your next turn - at which point you would be the one paying one non-stacking action for both conditions.


Finoan wrote:
Theaitetos wrote:
Oh, so Slow stacks with Mind Games?

??

Not following here. What am I missing?

I think you're missing how the Mind Games spell works.

I took Slow as an additional spell cast before, because I thought that would make it more clear, but you don't actually need Slow at all: Mind Games stacks with itself!!!

The Mind Games spell has a duration of "sustained up to 1 minute", so as long as you spend 1 action each turn sustaining the spell - and the enemy doesn't crit succeed their Will save - the spell remains ongoing.

Also, whenever you Sustain the spell, the enemy has to make another Will save against Mind Games, possibly stunning them on a fail. This is not limited to one Sustain per turn or round, so you can in fact Sustain the spell up to 3 times on your turn if the enemy keeps succeeding (but not crit succeeding).

This also opens following tactic after you have already cast Mind Games on an enemy:
1st action: Sustain the spell
2nd & 3rd action: Ready an Action to Sustain the spell once the enemy "does anything you can see" (i.e. their turn). Then on the enemy's turn you Sustain the spell. If they fail, they are Stunned 1.

Before the Errata this was the only way a spellcaster could stun an enemy on their turn, taking away their entire turn on a failed Will save.

Now this no longer works, but it stacks with itself, by using the same tactic. If the enemy fails their Will save on your turn's 1st action, they are stunned. At the beginning of their turn they lose 1 action and the stunned condition, but then you Sustain the spell again and if they fail once more they lose a second action.

So basically against an enemy with weak Will saves you have a good chance to take away 2 of their actions by spending your 3 actions on sustaining Mind Games all the time.

Grand Lodge

Theaitetos wrote:
Finoan wrote:
Theaitetos wrote:
Oh, so Slow stacks with Mind Games?

??

Not following here. What am I missing?

I think you're missing how the Mind Games spell works.

I took Slow as an additional spell cast before, because I thought that would make it more clear, but you don't actually need Slow at all: Mind Games stacks with itself!!!

The Mind Games spell has a duration of "sustained up to 1 minute", so as long as you spend 1 action each turn sustaining the spell - and the enemy doesn't crit succeed their Will save - the spell remains ongoing.

Also, whenever you Sustain the spell, the enemy has to make another Will save against Mind Games, possibly stunning them on a fail. This is not limited to one Sustain per turn or round, so you can in fact Sustain the spell up to 3 times on your turn if the enemy keeps succeeding (but not crit succeeding).

This also opens following tactic after you have already cast Mind Games on an enemy:
1st action: Sustain the spell
2nd & 3rd action: Ready an Action to Sustain the spell once the enemy "does anything you can see" (i.e. their turn). Then on the enemy's turn you Sustain the spell. If they fail, they are Stunned 1.

Before the Errata this was the only way a spellcaster could stun an enemy on their turn, taking away their entire turn on a failed Will save.

Now this no longer works, but it stacks with itself, by using the same tactic. If the enemy fails their Will save on your turn's 1st action, they are stunned. At the beginning of their turn they lose 1 action and the stunned condition, but then you Sustain the spell again and if they fail once more they lose a second action.

So basically against an enemy with weak Will saves you have a good chance to take away 2 of their actions by spending your 3 actions on sustaining Mind Games all the time.

I'd say the real issue you've highlighted here is not that Mind Games is broken, but that the Sustain action should not be a valid Ready option. If you can only Sustain on your turn, this sort of nonsense wouldn't be possible.

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