Force Open, Grapple, Reposition, Shove, Trip, and Disarm are under the Athletics skills and they have the Attack trait, so they are attacks and allow Press actions afterwards. Force Open is intended for inanimate objects; nevertheless, this means that breaking down a door also enables Press actions.
These actions are subject to the Multiple Attack Penalty. However, they use Athletics checks rather than attack rolls. This means that ordinarily the weapons the character holds, including Fist, do not matter for these attacks. However, weapons with the Grapple trait can be used to Grapple, weapons with the Shove trait can be used to Shove, weapons with the Trip or Ranged Trip trait can be used to Trip, and weapons with the Disarm trait can be used to disarm, which adds the weapon's item bonuses and Agile trait to the Athletics check. Finesse trait, unfortunately, applies only to attack rolls.
Escape has the Attack trait, too.
Also note that one's skill bonus can easily be higher than one's attack bonus. Expert at 3rd, Master at 7th, Legendary at 15th is superior to all but Fighter/Gunslinger proficiency (much of that with limited weapon choices). And you're targeting Fort or Ref which can vary wildly and range higher or lower than AC. This makes clear comparisons difficult.
That said, if you're targeting a henchman's weakest save, there's a decent chance that Assurance will auto-succeed (and it ignores MAP). That's an option not available with regular attacks. Note the weakest save is typically Will, but when you learn you can auto-succeed on a Press attack, you can spam it every spare action, even at your worst MAP.
So yeah, Daring Stunt functions fine as an opener to set up Press Attacks. Now if we could get some good Press-maneuver options that weren't so situational.
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During a recent playtest it became obvious that the reliance on Acrobatics or Athletics checks meant that some kind of advantage should be given to the daredevil against off-guard targets, so perhaps such a feature should be baked into the Adrenaline feature: Emphasis mine on proposed added text
Adrenaline
As you slip past the deadly blades of your opponents and perform stunts that put life and limb on the line, the thrill of danger washes through your veins. This heightened state is called adrenaline. You gain adrenaline by performing actions that have the risky trait. The GM might determine that a particularly dangerous action, such as leaping a deep chasm or sprinting across hazardous terrain, gains the risky trait. Such stunts typically involve at least one action and either automatically deal damage to you or risk dealing damage as the result of a failed skill check or saving throw. You gain adrenaline at the start of the risky action (before you move or attempt any rolls). The adrenaline lasts until the beginning of your next turn, so you must constantly perform risky actions to keep your adrenaline flowing. Normally, you gain and keep adrenaline only in combat encounters, and when an encounter ends, you lose adrenaline. To help you gain adrenaline, you gain the Daring Stunt action. Other daredevil actions, such as certain class feats, require you to have adrenaline. You gain +2 to Acrobatics or Athletics checks against off-guard targets when performing actions that have the risky trait.
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The big issue I have is that MCing into fighter gives the daredevil press strikes that also do most of this stuff for free: grab, shove, reposition. They are also one action so you can really benefit from your press only map reduction.
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The big issue I have is that MCing into fighter gives the daredevil press strikes that also do most of this stuff for free: grab, shove, reposition. They are also one action so you can really benefit from your press only map reduction.
Yes, Fighter Press feats are superior, the envy of the other martials except with MAP only the Fighter can capitalize on them fully (and perhaps Flurry Ranger). Now we have Daredevils operating well with MAP, yet their Press feats are unenviable. Some seem downright penalizing, perhaps only to gate them from other classes poaching.
Yet as a Fighter converts their higher attack proficiency to pull off maneuvers (tied to a Strike), Daredevils don't have a higher maneuver proficiency to pull off damage...except with Presses which often don't involve Strikes (until later except for that unarmed one w/ a Prop). It feels balanced that if Fighters are getting Strike + maneuver w/ their Presses (or sometimes multiple Strikes) then Daredevils should get maneuver + Strike with theirs (or sometimes multiple maneuvers or perhaps easy Stunt Damage, like against the floor). Seems the math would balance and Fighter still would retain major advantages. So give Daredevils this. Heck, one of the first things I wanted/expected was some sort of Strike + Stunt Damage and perhaps coming as a Press (and likely Flourish) we could get that. (Maybe Paizo already thinks the pseudo-Vicious Strike suffices?)
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Yeah, the best case press feats for a Daredevil would require an athletics or acrobatics skill check and automatically do stunt damage (maybe even 2x stunt damage on a critical success), rather than potentially do stunt damage instead of moving the enemy, if a prop is near by...
...but can any of that even compete with a Fighter using their own press feats and picking up Agile Grace at level 10? Leading with strikes and then getting cool effects on hits and crits with those strikes is just very powerful stuff that is going to be very difficult to differentiate without ending up just not as good.
I really liked the idea of the Daredevil and want it to be awesome. This is a really cool concept, and maybe leaning heavier into deadly and the obscene critical damage the class can do is worth moving forward in the feat progression, but the class needs more press strikes that are as good as the fighter's. Or is the whole class just setting itself to be like a specific fighter build...only not as good, but probably faster with a supportive GM.
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This seems like the best thread to talk through individual DD press feats that are Maneuver adjacent but if the discussion of them feels derailing, we can make separate threads for each one as necessary.
FLYING HURDLE STUNT
This one is particularly frustrating to me (especially without a 1 action press feats with a strike available) and represents how I feel a lot of these are missing the mark.
The requirement is needlessly punitive.
The critical success result is essentially “trade places with your enemy.” This makes it extremely difficult to do any stunt damage with. The added CS benefit is a +1 circumstance bonus to melee strikes until the start of your next turn…but this is a press action so best case is happening as a second action and you have no press melee strikes feats you are likely to use for a while…meaning that your 3rd action strike is happening at just one better than your regular full map attack…but you could have just attacked at your second attack with a much better bonus. Maaybe switching places makes your target off guard? But trip also targets reflex save and if you did daring stunt to trip with your first action, then pummeling press is going to be against an off guard target and almost certainly out damage a first action strike, flying hurdle stunt, 3rd action full map strike with much less risk.
This ability feels like fairly big risk, fairly minimal reward. I think you could add stunt damage to a success and double stunt damage to a critical success instead of the circumstance bonus and it would be a llt more fun and useable without making this over powered. Maybe just regular stunt damage on a crit, but the success result here is very questionable as a use of an action, even if you needed a risky action to get adrenaline instead of just daring stunt. I think a little too much is being made of not provoking reactions with this movement.
EDIT: To be fair to it, it has some weird synergy with Daring Reversal, but this is one of those "I just set myself up to get KO'd before my next turn situations. It would maybe approach passible as is if there was a 1 action press strike option at level 1.
FORCEFUL KICKOFF STUNT
Cool things:
acrobatics vs Fortitude is novel but makes sense.
Pushing 15 on a crit can probably also be thought of as pushing 10ft and into a prop. If you do just push 15ft and your speed is at least 30, which it should be, then you’ve stolen an action from someone that doesn’t have a 30ft speed and wants to attack you on their turn.
Not so cool things:
The one size larger thing is less egregious than it is with flying hurdle stunt to me, but still limits it significantly.
The movement from the leap not triggering reactions on a crit doesn’t seem all that big of an extra boost since you have probably moved the creature out of reach at this point.
Honestly I am not sure how to boost this one. If you add stunt damage to a crit, then does it do extra stunt damage as well if the creature hits a prop? That is probably fine, as it is essentially just doubling the stunt damage for a critical effect. I guess the success effect benefits enough from the “no reactions” to make it worth keeping it for the crit result as well? I kind of feel like feats that don’t provoke reactions are a little counter to the design of this class since it already gets ways of mitigating those, but I guess if you are really surrounded this can be a way out of there without getting overwhelmed with reactions. I did end up settling on this one for my playtest DD but I have yet to ever use it. The lack of one action press strikes just makes this one a difficult one to use. Maybe if you strike a couple times first or use a 2 action non-press ability that isn’t risky, then you use this to get out of dodge and give yourself adrenaline for the time between your turns? I think adding stunt damage once on the crit would probably be enough here to have an exciting critical effect.
Edit, this one becomes awesome if you archetype out into fighter and use assisting shot with an air repeater or something ranged with agile.
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I am trying to understand the daredevil from a tactical point of view. One niche for a daredevil is to slow down and debuff opponents with combat maneuvers to protect and enable the party. I will rate them by stars: 1 = useless, 2 = weak, 3 = okay, 4 = good.
I do not see a solid tactical use for FLYING HURDLE STUNT (1 star). I suppose the daredevil could Stride behind the target during Daring Stunt so that swapping places will put the target further from the party. Or maybe the swap will put the target into a flank between the daredevil and the party rogue. But those are cases would be infrequent. And the swap cannot slam the target into a Prop for Stunt damage. Significantly, the daredevil still ends up adjacent to the target, so it does not cost the target a Step to counterattack the daredevil. This feat provides no protection to the daredevil.
FORCEFUL KICKOFF STUNT (3 stars) is more useful to a Dexterity-based daredevil, because it uses Acrobatics. The target is pushed, so it could ram into a Prop for stunt damage, but since the daredevil would plan for a mere success rather than a critical success, the Prop would be immediately behind the target and the target would not move. Moving the target 5 feet could mean it has to Step before its own melee attacks, costing it an action. Even on a failure, the daredevil Leaps, so they do not end adjacent to the target.
PRESSING PUMMEL (3 stars) is a Press action that also requires adrenaline and takes 2 action. The two actions give a melee Strike with extra damage. Extra damage is typically better than a third attack, but the feat has no tactical value beyond the damage.
REBOUNDING FALL STUNT (2 stars) is pretty much a Trip and has the same tactical uses as Trip. The first difference it is against Acrobatics versus Fortitude DC rather than Athletics versus Reflex DC. The daredevil falls prone in the middle of the feat, but that does not immediately matter because an Acrobatics attack does not suffer the –2 circumstance penalty to attack rolls from prone. The critical success deals stunt damage. The failure leaves the daredevil prone but not adjacent to the target. The critical failure is harsh: prone and not able to get up until next turn. It is more brutal than Trip and has the Press and no-Titan-Wrestler and no-Trip-weapons disadvantages. The only reasons to take Rebounding Fall Stunt is if the daredevil is much worse at Athletics than Acrobatics or if you anticipate foes with weak Fortitude.
WHEELING PULL STUNT (3 stars) is a Grapple that allows some movement. This could give it a tactical use beyond Grapple itself. Furthermore, the Athletics check is against Reflex DC rather than Fortitude DC. However, it does have a disadvantage compared to Grapple: a critical success leaves the target only grabbed, not restrained. Grabbed condition does not prevent the target from beating on the daredevil at full force. The daredevil's player has to judge whether movement is well worth the extra risk and the cost of taking a feat.
I don't like the name of TRIP UP (2 stars) for a class that frequently makes Trips. It is a lot like PUMMELING PRESS in costing two actions and making a melee attack with benefits, but it does not require adrenaline. Clumsy 1 until the beginning of your next turn is a terrible benefit for the daredevil, who is out of actions, but it could benefit allies.
DARING REVERSAL (2 stars) is like the one-action stunts, but it requires adrenaline in advance rather than generating its own adrenaline with a Risky trait. It also requires that the daredevil is flanked, which means the daredevil took a Risky action already that turn but deliberately stopped or stayed in a flank. Then a successful Shove breaks the flank and leaves the still-adjacent opponent off-guard to the daredevil. Tactically, the daredevil went into a bad situation for a two melee Strikes at -4 and -8 MAP instead of -5 and -10 MAP. That fits the risk-and-reward theme, but seems like too much trouble for a feat.
HIGH-FLYING TUMBLE STUNT (1 star) returns to the one-action ATTACK DAREDEVIL PRESS RISKY stunts at 4th level. At 4th level the daredevil could also have taken Powerful Leap to make this easier to set up and survive. It is a Tumble Through that uses Athletics instead of Acrobatics and makes the opponent off-guard to everyone until the end of that very turn, so only the daredevil can take advantage of that. Why does this have the Attack trait when Tumbled Through is not an attack? It gives increases a -4 MAP to -8 in hopes of a -2 to enemy AC. What is the point?
HEADSMASH (4 stars), like Daring Reversal, requires adrenaline instead of generating its own. The requirements require careful set-up: the target is grabbed and adjacent to a Prop (this is a good time to argue that the floor could be a Prop), but the payoff is good: the target takes damage, becomes stunned 1, and the grab lasts until the end of your next turn. On the other hand, Daring Stunt requires moving at least 10 feet, so you cannot use Daring Stunt if you started the turn with the target grabbed. I recommend Breakaway Attack to generate both adrenaline and MAP in one action, which means having an environmental weapon within reach. Tactically, it a reasonable alternative to Grapple.
Headsmash does have a rules paradox that it sometimes has the Incapacitation trait depending on degree of success. If I wanted to get strict, a success on against a higher-level opponent has Incapacitation, so it becomes a failure, which does not have Incapacitation, so technically it would revert to Success, which has Incapacitation, and so on back and forth. In practice, I think it means that Critical Success and Success get downgraded by a degree of success and Failure does not.
I will rate WEAPON TWIST STUNT, ACCOMPANYING STRIKE, HIT OR MISS, KNEE TO THE NETHERS. and OPPORTUNISTIC MANEUVER STUNT later.
DARING REVERSAL (2 stars) is like the one-action stunts, but it requires adrenaline in advance rather than generating its own adrenaline with a Risky trait. It also requires that the daredevil is flanked, which means the daredevil took a Risky action already that turn but deliberately stopped or stayed in a flank. Then a successful Shove breaks the flank and leaves the still-adjacent opponent off-guard to the daredevil. Tactically, the daredevil went into a bad situation for a two melee Strikes at -4 and -8 MAP instead of -5 and -10 MAP. That fits the risk-and-reward theme, but seems like too much trouble for a feat.
How is the DD getting 2 strikes out of this with audacious combat? I see one strike in the ability, but what press action is the DD using to get a second strike without reverting to -10 MAP?
I feel like Flying Hurdle Stunt could be the set up for Daring Reversal, but then the second enemy being off guard to you is useless unless you knocked them prone with a daring stunt as your first action and you have acquired a reaction strike somehow.
PS: I didn't grade mine out yet because I am still trying to walk through how they could best be possibly used.
PPS: A lot of these would get better if there was a one action press strike available at first level, even if it only did something like add a step to the failure result.
Oooh, a Step away would be a nice perk on a miss (for a low-level Press of course, as it's comparable to Skirmish Strike, 6th).
I had thought limiting just to a failure effect would bring it down significantly from a feat that lets you step before or after making a strike, regardless of what you roll on the attack roll. The kinda funny thing is the DD could come with a first level feat that did nothing at all but give press and flourish to a regular strike and I think most DDs would take it.
If stepping on a failure is too good or simple, a kinda mean but maybe fun way to play into the risk reward thing in an unusual way would Be to make the feat also have a regular success result that makes you off guard to the target of the strike. So the gamble would be that if you hit and don’t kill them, you might be in trouble, but it is slightly mitigated by the fact that you could instead miss and then at least get a little separation.
DARING REVERSAL (2 stars) is like the one-action stunts, but it requires adrenaline in advance rather than generating its own adrenaline with a Risky trait. It also requires that the daredevil is flanked, which means the daredevil took a Risky action already that turn but deliberately stopped or stayed in a flank. Then a successful Shove breaks the flank and leaves the still-adjacent opponent off-guard to the daredevil. Tactically, the daredevil went into a bad situation for a two melee Strikes at -4 and -8 MAP instead of -5 and -10 MAP. That fits the risk-and-reward theme, but seems like too much trouble for a feat.How is the DD getting 2 strikes out of this with audacious combat? I see one strike in the ability, but what press action is the DD using to get a second strike without reverting to -10 MAP?
Oops, sorry. I oversimplified. I was thinking, "The melee Strike in Daring Reversal applies Audacious Combatant to have a -4 MAP. Then the daredevil can follow through with a plain Strike on the off-guard enemy, which would be -10 MAP but the -2 to AC on the target makes it effectively -8," yet I carelessly compressed that thought down to "-4 and -8 MAP."
I feel like Flying Hurdle Stunt could be the set up for Daring Reversal, but then the second enemy being off guard to you is useless unless you knocked them prone with a daring stunt as your first action and you have acquired a reaction strike somehow.
Daring Stunt could set up Daring Reversal by deliberately moving between two enemies, but going into a flank like that undermines the idea of reversal. Breakaway Strike could set up Daring Reversal if the daredevil began the turn flanked by two enemies who moved during their turns. This would mean that the daredevil took a lot of damage during the enemies' turns.
PS: I didn't grade mine out yet because I am still trying to walk through how they could best be possibly used.
I added the grading to my post right before posting it. I realized that I was so wordy that the readers deserved a summary of how good each feat was without having to read all the details of my tactical analysis.
PPS: A lot of these would get better if there was a one action press strike available at first level, even if it only did something like add a step to the failure result.
As I said in Audacious Combat has some problems, comment #7, the fighter's Exacting Strike Press feat 1 fits the daredevil. The only reason to not add it to the daredevil's feat repertoire is because it is better than most other daredevil feats. Tarondor's Guide to the Pathfinder 2e (Remastered) Fighter rates it at 3 stars:
Exacting Strike () - If you miss, this strike doesn’t count toward your multiple attack penalty. But since this feat has the Press trait, you’re going to need to attack three times to give it any effect.
The daredevil, like the Flurry-Edge ranger, seems designed to attack three times.
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The daredevil, like the Flurry-Edge ranger, seems designed to attack three times.
Yes but doesn't have good tools to do this in practice.
When I tried to use the DD Press feats with MAP-6 I got a high rate of critical failures. This made me to avoid to use its Press actions with maximum MAP. In fact I abandoned all currently level 1 and 2 Press actions except from Pressing Pummel due to the increased critical failure rate.
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Another thing that is some times true is that Paizo doesn’t play test things that are already known to work. A simple one action press strike would probably fall into that category
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During a recent playtest it became obvious that the reliance on Acrobatics or Athletics checks meant that some kind of advantage should be given to the daredevil against off-guard targets, so perhaps such a feature should be baked into the Adrenaline feature: Emphasis mine on proposed added text
Adrenaline
As you slip past the deadly blades of your opponents and perform stunts that put life and limb on the line, the thrill of danger washes through your veins. This heightened state is called adrenaline. You gain adrenaline by performing actions that have the risky trait. The GM might determine that a particularly dangerous action, such as leaping a deep chasm or sprinting across hazardous terrain, gains the risky trait. Such stunts typically involve at least one action and either automatically deal damage to you or risk dealing damage as the result of a failed skill check or saving throw. You gain adrenaline at the start of the risky action (before you move or attempt any rolls). The adrenaline lasts until the beginning of your next turn, so you must constantly perform risky actions to keep your adrenaline flowing. Normally, you gain and keep adrenaline only in combat encounters, and when an encounter ends, you lose adrenaline. To help you gain adrenaline, you gain the Daring Stunt action. Other daredevil actions, such as certain class feats, require you to have adrenaline. You gain +2 to Acrobatics or Athletics checks against off-guard targets when performing actions that have the risky trait.
GM from that playtest. I agree with the above. But perhaps +2 is too high, and a +1 may be more appropriate?
Either way, because:
It would encourage teamwork as well, and incentivize them to get into weird positions, which seems on-brand.
And with Deny Advantage, they already have an appropriate defense against such risky positioning.
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Continuing my analysis of the individual Press feats.
WEAPON TWIST STUNT (1 star), attack daredevil press risky feat 6, is Disarm with an Acrobatics check instead of an Athletics check. However, its results are worse than Disarm;s results. Critical success is fine, both disarm the target. But success in Disarm gives a –2 circumstance penalty to the target's attacks until they Interact to Regrip, and Success in Weapon Twist Stunt gives a –2 circumstance penalty to the target's attacks until the end of its next turn. I prefer that the daredevil force an opponent to waste actions, such as taking an action to Regrip. Critical failure on Disarm makes the daredevil off-guard, and Critical failure on Weapon Twist Stunt lets the target either disarm the daredevil or make a free melee Strike. Weapon Twist Stunt is tactically inferior to Disarm, unless the daredevil desperately needs to generate adrenaline and enable Audacious Combatant.
ACCOMPANYING STRIKE (3 stars) is a fighter-style Press Strike that makes the weapon moderately better after a failed melee Strike with the weapon. It does not work as well with a daredevil as with a fighter, since it is enabled by a Strike and not by a combat maneuver, not even a combat maneuver that used a weapon.
HIT OR MISS (3 stars) increases the damage of a melee Strike in exchange for giving the target a free melee Strike on a critical miss. Thus, it would be good against non-martial opponents who are terrible at melee Strikes. It could also be a desperation measure against a foe whose AC is so high that only a natural 20 can hit them, but the daredevil will suffer more damage than the opponent.
KNEE TO THE NETHERS (4 stars) is a combined Grapple and Strike, like the fighter feat 2 Combat Grab. It has the disadvantage that the Grapple has to succeed to attempt the Strike and the disadvantage that the target could become sickened 1. It lacks the Risky trait, despite the Grapple having a built-in critical failure possibility.
OPPORTUNISTIC MANEUVER STUNT (4 stars) is three actions for one action: Stride, Reposition, and Strike, except that an ally makes the Strike instead of you. The ally's Strike won't suffer a multiple attack penalty. It is carefully worded to prevent stunt damage.
RISKY OVEREXTENSION (3 stars) is double damage for two actions, a good activity for the 2nd and 3rd actions. It has a nasty critical failure: stunned 1. And it always gives off-guard to the daredevil. The disadvantages fit the name, the daredevil is vulnerable from overextension. Risky Overextension can deal more damage than Double Slice, fighter feat 1, by using a two-handed weapon, but its downsides are harsh.
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As a perennial crit fisher, I probably like hit or miss more than I should, but with an agile weapon, and if you start the turn with a daring stunt trip you could be looking at an attack that is only -1 compared to your normal attack. With the support later to crit on a natural 19, a fatal weapon like a light pick could be absolutely devastating. This would be the kind of situation worth an ally aiding the daredevil, especially if the DD has a hero point left.
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I have been pondering the game-design purpose of Press trait. I deduced three reasons for Press. (1) It limits a Press single action to at most two time per turn. (2) It fits naturally for an action that follows an different attack, such as in daredevil's Accompanying Strike. (3) It enforces a lower chance of success and a higher chance of critical failure so that success can be more powerful and critical failure can be more visible.
I think that reason 3 is why Press was made a feature of daredevil feats.
Several builds of other classes use just one attack per turn. A gunslinger has to reload. A spellstriking magus has to recharge. A blaster sorcerer requires two actions per spell. Thus, they attack without a multiple attack penalty. The Starlit-Span magus Zandre in my campaign prefers to hide before ranged spellstrike in order to get an extra 10% chance of success and wound never risk a non-cantrip spell when she has a multiple attack penalty.
But daredevil is about risk and reward. The designers want the daredevil to have a good chance of critical failure. If the attack has a 50% or higher chance of success and critical success, then critical failure will occur only on a natural 1, 5% of the time. If the daredevil has a 40% chance of success, then critical failure occurs on a natural 3 or lower, 15% of the time. 15% is noticeable, close to 1 out of 7.
What are the actual odds? Imagine a 6th-level daredevil, Strength +4 and expert in Athletics, fighting a 7th-level opponent. The daredevil's Athletics bonus is +14. I could bump it up to +15 by channeling the maneuver through a +1 weapon, but let's presume that the daredevil is using a feat that does not allow the weapon's bonus. By Table 2–6: Saving Throws in the GM Core the high saving throw for a 7th-level creature is +18, the moderate saving throw is +15, and the low saving throw is +12, so the DCs are 28, 25, and 22. Against the high save the daredevil has a success on a natural 14 and critical failure on a natural 4 or lower. Against the moderate save, success on a natural 11 and critical failure on a natural 1. Against the low save, success on a natural 8 and critical failure on a natural 1.
The Saving Throws guidelines say, "You can often set saves quickly by assigning one high, one moderate, and one low modifier. Some creatures might vary from this, either because they have poor AC but better saves or because they should thematically have multiple good saves and compensate elsewhere. You have more flexibility with saves, and having one save be 1 more or 1 less than the listed number is rarely a big deal. Pay attention to the creature's Con, Dex, and Wis modifiers—these don't have to correspond to the creature's saves exactly, but should inform your choices." Assuming only one high save, the daredevil has 1/3 chance that the maneuver was against a high save. The chance of a critical failure is (1/3)(20%) + (2/3)(5%) = 10%.
Next, we add the Press trait. Audacious Combatant reduces the MAP to -4. Against the high save the daredevil has a success on a natural 18 and critical failure on a natural 8 or lower. Against the moderate save, success on a natural 15 and critical failure on a natural 5 or lower. Against the low save, success on a natural 12 and critical failure on a natural 1 or 2. Assuming only one high save one moderate save, and one low save, the chance of a critical failure is (1/3)(40%) + (1/3)(25%) + (1/3)(10%) = 25%. If we add agile to the Audacious Combatant, the chance of critical failure drops by 5% across the board, so the average chance of critical failure is 20%.
Working with a MAP -8 due to using the maneuver on a third attack would give an average chance of critical failure of 45%. With agile that would be MAP -6 for an average chance of critical failure at 35%. The math says to not use a Risky feat with a harsh critical failure result, such as falling prone, as a third attack.
When the daredevil levels up to 7th level, they can become master in Athletics. That increases their Athletics bonus to +17. The recommended saves for an 8th-level opponent are high +19, moderate +16, and low +13. That reduces every chance of critical failure, except the no MAP case, by 10%. But when the daredevil levels up to 8th level, they get only +1 from level to Athletics, but Table 2–6: Saving Throws increases the saving throws by 2, so that 10% drops to 5%. It would stay at that 5% improvement for a 9th-level daredevil against a random 10th-level opponent, except that the daredevil has a chance of acquiring Armbands of Athleticism.
No need to talk of trends when I can grind out all 20 levels. A 1st-level daredevil with Strength +4 and trained Athletics +7 with a -4 MAP versus a 2nd-level creature with moderate save +8 succeeds on a natural 15 and critically fails on a 5 or lower for a 25% chance of critical failure.
1st 25%. 2nd 25%. 3rd expert Athletics 20%.
4th 20%. 5th 25%. 6th 25%
7th master Athletics 15%. 8th 20%. 9th Armbands of Athleticism 10%.
10th Str +5 10%. 11th 10%. 12th 10%
13th 15%. 14th 15%. 15th legendary Athletics 10%.
16th 10%. 17th Bracers of Strength 5%. 18th 10%.
19th 10%. 20th Str +6 10%
Ouch. The daredevil from 1st level to 6th level takes about twice as much punishment from critical failures on daredevil feats that daredevils from 9th level and up. The Athletics-boosting items Armbands of Athleticism and Bracers of Strength help a lot.
This could be partially corrected by a new 1st-level daredevil feature:
Environmental Advantage
The daredevil boldly exploits objects in the terrain to improve their stunts. They gain a +1 item bonus to their Acrobatics and Athletics checks while they have adrenaline.
I considered restricting this to "during Risky actions" but the daredevil is already tracking whether they have adrenaline or not, so adrenaline-tracking is simpler to play. With Environmental Advantage the daredevil would no longer rely on a +1 Shove or Trip weapon during their low-level Shove and Trip attempts. That seems more thematic. Armbands of Athleticism become available before +2 weapon potency runes. +3 weapon potency runes become available one level before the +3 item bonus from greater Armbands of Athleticism or Braces of Strength, but that temptation will affect only 16th level.
I had considered a +2 item bonus from Environment Advantage, but that feels extreme for a non-magical effect. It would correct that vulnerability before Armbands of Athleticism almost completely. An alternative for 1st and 2nd level would be to give expert proficiency in either Acrobatics or Athletics at 1st level.
Observant readers who looked at Table 2–6: Saving Throws will have noticed that the high save is 3 always more than the moderate save and the low save is 3 always less than the moderate save. Thus, the actual saving throw will vary from the moderate saving throw by 15% in either direction (except that natural 1s mean the bottom percentage is 5%). The difference between a 15% chance of critical failure against a moderate save and 30% chance of critical failure against a high save is twice the punishment. Thus, a daredevil really needs to tell the difference between saves.
I asked Archives of Nethys to show me the 100 common 7th-level creatures. Three have Fortitude +11, 10 have Fortitude +12 (low), 8 have Fortitude +13, 7 have Fortitude +14, 23 have Fortitude +15 (moderate), 6 have Fortitude +16, 25 have Fortitude +17, 18 have Fortitude +18 (high), and the Tiddalik has Fortitude +19. Humans and other civilized humanoids have the lower Fortitudes, and animals and giant humanoids have the higher Fortitudes.
But Recall Knowledge checks are more in character than the player memorizing patterns. The daredevil is not going to invest in Intelligence or Wisdom for Recall Knowledge, so perhaps they should have a feat to make it easier.
Discover Defense [free action] feat 1
Daredevil Secret
Prerequisites trained in Arcana, Nature, Occultism, Religion, or Society
Trigger You made an attack against a creature this turn against one of their Saving Throw DCs.
Sparring against a foe quickly teaches you their defenses. Make a Recall Knowledge check to learn the DC of the saving throw used against your attack. If you roll a critical failure, you get a failure instead. If you previously failed Recall Knowledge against that creature, then you can still use Recall Knowledge via Discover Defense.
Interesting that at 7th (which does represent a spike in ability), Assurance will work on about 20% of at-level enemies; more than I'd expected, esp. for Fort. Once discovered, those enemies are going to feel it w/ every spare action the Daredevil has.
I'd like to see Daredevils able to catch enemies Off-Guard to maneuvers. Maybe that messes with the math in unforeseen ways or implies too much teamwork for our risk-themed class or maybe access to Assurance is the perk maneuvers get instead. Dunno, but I feel there should be equal rewards for teamwork.
Speaking of which, I'd like more DD feats that address busy battlefields, though I admit I'm forgetting the feats already so maybe they're there.
Dare devils also seem to get ways of targeting both fort and reflex in different ways than standard combat maneuvers. That seems like a very intentional way of giving a 1 to 2 point bonus. It’s what they did with the shadow signet ring for spell casters
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Dare devils also seem to get ways of targeting both fort and reflex in different ways than standard combat maneuvers. That seems like a very intentional way of giving a 1 to 2 point bonus. It’s what they did with the shadow signet ring for spell casters
Let's list the options.
REPOSITION Athletics check against Fortitude DC for moving a foe
SHOVE Athletics check against Fortitude DC for moving a foe
FLYING HURDLE STUNT Athletics check against Reflex DC for a moving a foe
FORCEFUL KICKOFF STUNT Acrobatics check against Fortitude DC for moving a foe and Leaping
OPPORTUNISTIC MANEUVER STUNT Athletics check against the Fortitude DC for moving a foe and an ally's Strike
DARING REVERSAL uses Shove
GRAPPLE Athletics check against Fortitude DC for grabbing a foe
WHEELING PULL STUNT Athletics check against Reflex DC for grabbing a foe
HEADSMASH Athletics check against the Fortitude DC to stun and maintain a grab
KNEE TO THE NETHERS uses Grapple
TRIP Athletics check against the target's Reflex DC for knocking a foe prone
REBOUNDING FALL STUNT Acrobatics check against Fortitude DC for knocking a foe prone
TOPPLE THE DOMINOES uses Shove or Trip
TUMBLE THROUGH Acrobatics check against Reflex DC for moving through a foe's space
HIGH-FLYING TUMBLE STUNT Athletics check against Reflex DC for moving through a foe's space
TUMBLING TRICKS uses Tumble Through
DISARM Athletics check against Reflex DC to disarm a foe's weapon
WEAPON TWIST STUNT Acrobatics check against Reflex DC to disarm a foe's weapon
The difference between Acrobatics and Athletics is whether Strength or Dexterity is the characters key attribute score. That is already maximized. My Dexterity-based playtest daredevil learned Forceful Kickoff Stunt and Weapon Twist Stunt to take advantage of her Acrobatics. To get bonuses beyond the daredevil's build, we need to look at the foe.
The Tiddalik, creature 7, is an extreme case: Fortitude +19 and Reflex +11. The high-Reflex extreme among common 7th-level creatures is the Apothecary Bee, with Fortitude +14 and Reflex +19. The low-Fortitude extreme is the human Master of Disguise with Fortitude +11 and Reflex +17. The low-Reflex extreme is Living Tar with Fortitude +18 and Reflex +6, but it is an ooze so its AC 14 is even easier to hit. Those extremes have differences of 8, 5, 6, and 12, so choosing the optimal DC makes an extreme difference.
On the other hand, the Knight has Fortitude and Reflex both at +14, and theFleshwarper and Skeletal Hulk have both at +15. A few other creatures, such as a Young Omen Dragon, have a difference of 1, but +1 to success is still significant.
Alas, if the daredevil has no idea which is the higher save, then they cannot deliberately take advantage of that.
You forget to add "with MAP" to all Press feats manouvers too :P
You forget to add "with MAP" to all Press feats manouvers too :P
Isn’t there errata for the remaster that clarifies unarmed attacks (including maneuvers can benefit from the agile trait?
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You forget to add "with MAP" to all Press feats manouvers too :PIsn’t there errata for the remaster that clarifies unarmed attacks (including maneuvers can benefit from the agile trait?
MULTIPLE ATTACKS WITH ATHLETICS
Several Athletics actions have the attack trait, meaning that using them more than once in the same turn makes them less accurate. Since these actions use your free hand, you use the traits for your fist attack to determine the multiple attack penalty, so your fist’s agile trait applies. Therefore, you take a –4 penalty if the action is your second attack of the turn, or a –8 if it’s the third.Some weapon traits allow you to take these actions using a weapon, in which case the penalty might be –5 or –10 if the weapon doesn’t have the agile trait. Some characters can get unarmed attacks without the agile trait as well. If it’s unclear which penalty to use, the GM makes the call.
Archives of Nethys quotes this statement under Athletics skill.
Most of the risky stunts don't require a free hand nor are they applied through an agile weapon, so they don't count as agile. A feat that uses Grapple, Reposition, Trip, or Shove would require a free hand, except that Daring Reversal and Knee to the Nethers explicitly that their subordinate actions that ordinarily require a free hand don't require it here, "You don’t need a hand free to attempt this Shove." Double Breakaway gives an option to Breakaway Attack that requires two free hands.
As for adding "with MAP" to the discussion, that is given by the Press feat.
If you have a free hand, couldn’t you make the athletics attack with that free hand? If you held no weapon wouldn’t you have to?
I think, with the clarity of that athletics side bar, the intention has to be that hat the daredevil is going to be getting the agile attacks with this and that it is intended to be playtested that way. Pointing out how that will need to be sure to be clearly stated with these unusual attacks is a good idea, but the design of the class makes it impossible to believe that we shouldn’t be looking at -3 and -6 for these press attack action abilities and not -4 and -8.
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If the designer doesn't put this clearly it won't looks like that it will benefit from the agile trait MAP reduction in the same way that won't get many manuver specific item bonuses.
It's like having a +1 weapon weapon with trip trait. Due to the trip trait you can use this weapon not only without free-hand but also if you declare that you are using it to Trip it also gets the weapon item bonus and reach.
So once that the DD Press manuvers doesn't requires a free-hand nor have use some special trait to allow them to be considered as agile, so they are not. If we would allow them to do such thing sou they also have to get bonuses from Handwraps or other traits like reach.
So RAW these Press feat manouvers aren't agile until the designer puts that they are agile or that they would use your weapons/unarmed traits and bonuses.
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The playtest is ambiguous about free hands, which means we should discuss it so that the Paizo developers learn of the ambiguity and can clarify it in the final version.
Multiple Attacks with Athletics says, "Since these actions use your free hand,..." Grapple, Shove, Trip, and Disarm say, "You have at least one hand free." Reposition says, "You either have at least one hand free, or you're grabbing or restraining the target." I have been allowing my player characters to make a Grapple attempt to maintain a grab while their previously free hand is holding the target. I have assumed that all those combat maneuvers use the hand, so they are agile.
Force Open has no requirement for a free hand. Escape does not require a free hand--both hands might be in manacles. I do not consider them agile.
The agility of a Strike is determined by the weapon used, not whether the attacker has a free hand. I presume this means that a character attacking with a rapier while his other hand is free is not using the free hand in the Strike. I never even considered that a spell attack, such as melee Ignition could be agile.
Then we have the new Athletics and Acrobatics feats for the daredevil. Only Weapon Twist Stunt requires a free hand. (I thought I had mentioned that in my previous comment, but my wife sent me out to walk the dogs just before I wrote the sentence, and I accidentally skipped it.) I am willing to accept that the Multiple Attacks with Athletics rule also applies to Multiple Attacks with Acrobatics.
The only guidance on agile in the Daredevil Playtest is in Audacious Combatant:
Audacious Combatant
Your adrenaline fuels you to attack again and again. Whenever you have adrenaline and make an attack as part of an action with the press trait, your multiple attack penalty is –4 (–3 with an agile attack) on your second attack of the turn instead of –5, and –8 (–6 with an agile attack) on your third or subsequent attack of the turn instead of –10.
It reacts to agile, but does not add anything to the list of agile actions.
Personally, I would add two sentences to the rules that clarify the agility: "If you make an Athletics or Acrobatics attack while you have a free hand, the attack is agile. If you attempt to extend the duration of grabbing a creature held in your hand, that hand is considered free for the attempt." This can be added to errata for Player Core and repeated in a sidebox in Risks & Rewards. But I do not know whether the Athletic and Acrobatic stunts as currently written are meant to be agile.
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The playtest is ambiguous about free hands, which means we should discuss it so that the Paizo developers learn of the ambiguity and can clarify it in the final version.
Multiple Attacks with Athletics says, "Since these actions use your free hand,..." Grapple, Shove, Trip, and Disarm say, "You have at least one hand free." Reposition says, "You either have at least one hand free, or you're grabbing or restraining the target." I have been allowing my player characters to make a Grapple attempt to maintain a grab while their previously free hand is holding the target. I have assumed that all those combat maneuvers use the hand, so they are agile.
Force Open has no requirement for a free hand. Escape does not require a free hand--both hands might be in manacles. I do not consider them agile.
The agility of a Strike is determined by the weapon used, not whether the attacker has a free hand. I presume this means that a character attacking with a rapier while his other hand is free is not using the free hand in the Strike. I never even considered that a spell attack, such as melee Ignition could be agile.
Then we have the new Athletics and Acrobatics feats for the daredevil. Only Weapon Twist Stunt requires a free hand. (I thought I had mentioned that in my previous comment, but my wife sent me out to walk the dogs just before I wrote the sentence, and I accidentally skipped it.) I am willing to accept that the Multiple Attacks with Athletics rule also applies to Multiple Attacks with Acrobatics.
The only guidance on agile in the Daredevil Playtest is in Audacious Combatant:
Audacious Combatant
Your adrenaline fuels you to attack again and again. Whenever you have adrenaline and make an attack as part of an action with the press trait, your multiple attack penalty is –4 (–3 with an agile attack) on your second attack of the turn instead of –5, and –8 (–6 with an agile attack) on your third or subsequent attack of the turn instead of
...
It is definitely something to talk about and make sure they get right with a class like this or it will lead to endless calls for errata and arguments online.
It makes the most sense to me to make this a higher order rule somewhere in the book the class is published in to clarify that all athletic and acrobatic attack actions can benefit from agile if the character has a free appendage that can perform the action and has an attack with it that is agile (Long way of saying free hand without excluding limbs that should work like a free hand).
I can see the value in having it individually clarified in each ability for the sake of being more flexible with how powerful those abilities can be, but there needs to be very clear language that is not super nested in subordinate rules or it will get played differently at every table.
Having press actions that don’t benefit from an agile weapon/free hand, while getting extra benefits from the agile trait, being the only real benefit of having adrenaline (beyond enabling new abilities), feels down right mean to daredevil players. Minimally if abilities are supposed to exist that don’t benefit from it, those abilities need to be obviously more powerful than those that do, to justify it.
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For the greatest clarity, Paizo developers could declare Agile to be both a weapon trait and a mechanics trait, just like Monk is both a weapons trait and a class trait, and Elf is both a weapons trait and an ancestry trait. Archives of Nethys has a list of trait categories at Category Page: Traits.
Then Grapple, Reposition, Shove, Trip, Disarm, and maybe Escape can be labeled Agile in Player Core errata. The new daredevil feats can be labeled Agile when they are supposed to be agile. Strike would have a rule that a Strike becomes Agile when the Strike is made with an Agile weapon.
The current definition of Agile is:
Agile (Source: Player Core page 282) The multiple attack penalty you take with this weapon on the second attack on your turn is –4 instead of –5, and –8 instead of –10 on the third and subsequent attacks in the turn.
The new definition of Agile could be:
Agile The multiple attack penalty you take with this action on the second attack on your turn is –4 instead of –5, and –8 instead of –10 on the third and subsequent attacks in the turn. A Strike with an Agile weapon becomes Agile.
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Slippery Prey
Feat 2
General Skill
Source Player Core 2 pg. 234Prerequisites trained in Acrobatics or Athletics
You're able to escape bonds more easily than others. When you attempt to Escape using Acrobatics or Athletics, you reduce the multiple attack penalty for repeated attempts to –4 and –8 if you're trained in the skill. The penalty becomes –3 and –6 if you're a master in the appropriate skill. If you're legendary in the skill, you don't take penalties for multiple Escape attempts in the same turn. Regardless of your training, your attempts to Escape still have the attack trait and incur a multiple attack penalty with other actions.
As per the above feat, Escape is currently not an Agile type action, even when using Acrobatics.
Slippery Prey is actually an excellent feat for Daredevils IMO.
When you introduce a new class with new mechanics, it's better to make those new mechanics user-friendly instead of completely re-hauling the entire game system to accommodate said class. The various daredevil feats pretty much just need to be designated as Agile so that Audacious Combatant can kick in without having players refer to a game-stopping, headache-inducing flowchart during play...
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Haven't taken the time to review the entire thread yet but as I have some playtest experience with the class at this point I can mention a few things here from our experience:
- We ruled that maneuvers counted as Agile or non-Agile based on the trait of the weapon or unarmed strike used to perform the maneuver. This should definitely be clarified in the class proper, either as a universal class rule or as a part of the Adrenaline feature, as it can simply have a rule stating that Daredevils with Adrenaline count all Athletics-based or Acrobatics-based Attack rolls as having Agile. This is especially important for Breakaway Attack builds, as BA feels like it wants to be used as an opener to gain Adrenaline, making it likely that Daredevils running BA will often be flipping the typical rotation of "Maneuver > Double lockdown/Attack for Damage" into "Attack with highest bonus > Maneuver with a Press Action"
-Size manipulation being something you need to plan and build for is a bit weird and I don't know how much I like it, as is I was running Titan Wrestler on a build that kept a Giant Fury Cocktail in its back pocket, but thankfully it didn't come up. This is the first time I had seen literally any potential benefit to taking a Fanged rune though, so I guess there's that.
-I think rather than having so many feats that simply clone an existing maneuver but swap the skill check to Acrobatics or vice versa, it would be more interesting to have feats that provide action compression, adding additional effects onto existing maneuvers in exchange for possibly greater penalties or some degree of positional setup. As mentioned in the Builds thread, my favorite feat at low levels is easily Whirling Pull Stunt specifically because it combines Grapple with Leading Dance from Swashbuckler. Addressing this point could be as simple as adding "deal Stunt damage" to more stunts as a Success condition rather than a crit success in some cases.
-Most Press actions are technically Readiable, since MAP carries over into Readied Actions. I haven't fully analyzed how this could be fully used yet, but seems like it could have some interesting use cases ("I ready to use Whirling Pull Stunt when an opponent tries to move away from me" as a means to disrupt move actions, readying Daring Reversal in general and potentially smashing someone with it as they try to move past you in a crowded space). Honestly a feat or two that supports this playstyle could be fun but I don't know if it fully fits the class identity.
-worth mentioning while we're talking about maneuvers but if we can get a Seismic Toss press feat that would be great. It came up during playtesting that technically if you push a foe off a ledge and they enter freefall, the ground should probably count as a Prop as it is stopping forced movement and deal extra damage in addition to the Falling damage; something that explicitly uses that to your advantage I think would be a fun flavorful addition to the available Press actions.
-The weird fixation this class has with critting on Press actions feels incredibly strange to me, especially when it wants me to crit on a Strike. That's still asking for a crit with -3 to the roll best case even if the chances of the enemy being OffGuard are high. Feats like Don't Mess with Me especially feel like they're asking a lot to go off for no particulqrly exciting payout. These feats probably work ok against minions but it seems like a strange sticking point to have overall, at least until you get options like Keen.
-I think that a feat or class ability that allowed you to add the Press trait to your next Athletics- or Acrobatics based skill check once per round as a free action would do wonders for improving build flexibility and round-to-round dynamism; this would enable more of the standard combat maneuvers to be used as a Press without needing a specific feat for it, while also opening up the door for old favorite actions like Whirling Throw to potentially make a comeback.
-I don't know if I like Martial Flexibility being on this class a whole lot unless they make their Press actions more specific. As is I'd like to see more power baked into turn-based moment-to-moment decisions rather than something that helps me plan for the day.
-last one: I don't recall there being a maneuver here that inflicts Confusion, which feels like a crime given all of the Jackie Chan influences. Feels like something that should be added somewhere.
fun class overall, will probably think of more as I get more time with them. Might run a few through our default high level gauntlet of Night of the Gray Death Ch2.
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-Most Press actions are technically Readiable, since MAP carries over into Readied Actions. I haven't fully analyzed how this could be fully used yet, but seems like it could have some interesting use cases ("I ready to use Whirling Pull Stunt when an opponent tries to move away from me" as a means to disrupt move actions, readying Daring Reversal in general and potentially smashing someone with it as they try to move past you in a crowded space). Honestly a feat or two that supports this playstyle could be fun but I don't know if it fully fits the class identity.
The Press trait has some fine print that forbids Readying it.
Press Trait
Source Player Core pg. 139
Actions with this trait allow you to follow up earlier attacks. An action with the press trait can be used only if you are currently affected by a multiple attack penalty. You can’t use a press action when it’s not your turn, even if you use the Ready activity.
Some actions with the press trait also grant an effect on a failure. The effects that are added on a failure don’t apply on a critical failure. If your press action succeeds, you can choose to apply the failure effect instead. (For example, you may wish to do this when an attack deals no damage due to resistance.)
Yeah, this seems like a really bad class to try readied actions on. You will almost certainly be attacking with full map and no benefit from audacious combat. You are really going to have to do the things on your turn and run away with your reaction… or MC into fighter, get better press actions, More HP and reactive strike. Honestly, it kinda feels to me like the fighter MC’d into this class is going to be better at almost everything the class does, except exclusively press combat maneuvers, and then it is really only going to be worse by one until it can get agile grace at 10. At which point its strikes will be much better, its maneuvers equal, and the only thing it might be worse at is prop damage and speed, but neither of those will come close to comparing the fighter’s accuracy with strikes.
-I don't know if I like Martial Flexibility being on this class a whole lot unless they make their Press actions more specific. As is I'd like to see more power baked into turn-based moment-to-moment decisions rather than something that helps me plan for the day.
Ah, I remember Martial Flexibility on the PF1 Brawler. I had created a 4th-level NPC brawler, Dewey Baros, in my Iron Gods campaign for a little friendly sparring with the 5th-level party. They liked Dewey and hired him, so I played that NPC longer than I expected.
Martial Flexibility lets a brawler change a combat feat by spending a move action. The daredevil's version, Daredevil’s Stunt + Stunt Flexibility + Improved Stunt Flexibility, can change a risky daredevil feat only during daily preparations, when the daredevil has little idea which feats they will need later in the day. It is disappointing.
My elder daughter likes playing daredevil-style characters. She told me her views on the daredevil and she says that the daredevil needs to live in the moment. The daredevil will change their plans for a turn depending on whether they succeed or fail on a roll. She disliked that Stunt Flexibility is nowhere near flexible enough for that style.
I am going to post this here because I feel like it should interact with maneuvers and the press trait but doesn't, yet:
Don't Mess With Me feels like it should be a cool feat for a daredevil class, but it has a lot working against it, and could be tweaked to interact with the class much better.
1. CHA is hard on this class, but that isn't inherently a complete fail for this feat being in this class. The class lacks an inherent reaction and while scrambling retreat makes the most sense generally, it is not free either, so something like this as an alternative could be interesting.
2. Critical hits are only for strikes. This is the real deal killer for this class. There are no risky strikes. It is a class all about doing maneuvers on the most likely roll to result in a critical success, so only triggering off of strikes is pretty brutal. The Daredevil is about unlikely press actions, maneuvers and doing cool stunts.
I think the trigger should shift, minimally to be critical success on an attack action, but I think, fitting the big risk, big reward design goal, that something extra cool should happen when you critically succeed at a press action. Maybe something like, on a failure or better the target takes a step closer to the nearest prop, seeking cover or stability after the impressive display.
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Is there room to make the daredevil into a skill class that replaces Athletics into certain skill actions? For example, Don't Mess With Me could change its trigger to "You critically succeed an Athletics check to Shove an enemy" and its effect to allow you to Demoralize the target using your Athletics modifier instead. It fits the idea of a bully that pushes people around to scare them, while also making the class less dependant on a 4th attribute.
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I agree with the above. Although the class does have Strike feats and should make Strikes, I also feel Striking on the Daredevil is somewhat secondary to their maneuvers, in the same way that maneuvers are secondary to most other martial classes relative to Strikes. I also feel that "even when you maneuver, you also Strike" could be a solid baseline to apply to the class: if stunt damage were integrated more consistently into all maneuvers and could double on critical successes, much like Strike damage, that I think would help both make the class more powerful (which I think is necessary at this point) and help them feel like they're still doing something even when there's nothing to move enemies into in the immediate.
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I agree with the above. Although the class does have Strike feats and should make Strikes, I also feel Striking on the Daredevil is somewhat secondary to their maneuvers, in the same way that maneuvers are secondary to most other martial classes relative to Strikes. I also feel that "even when you maneuver, you also Strike" could be a solid baseline to apply to the class: if stunt damage were integrated more consistently into all maneuvers and could double on critical successes, much like Strike damage, that I think would help both make the class more powerful (which I think is necessary at this point) and help them feel like they're still doing something even when there's nothing to move enemies into in the immediate.
A random thought; what if Stunt Damage was replaced with a feature that would allow you to make a Strike after making a succesful Athletics maneuver (this attack would gain the press trait), with Audacious Combatant reducing your MAP to +0 with attacks that have the press trait, but changing the daredevil to have slow martial progression like that of alchemists (expert at 7th, weapon specialization at 13th level, and master at 15th. No greater weapon specialization).
This would encourage a "maneuver first, Strike second" approach to the class in a smooth way, while giving a much needed buff to the daredevil's damage. You'll always be behind other martials in accuracy, but as long as you succeed your Athletics checks you'll potentially be able to make 3 attacks at MAP +0 which is huge.
It could be a bit overpowered though. Specially if you can use Assurance for the Athletics result. Probably limited to 1/round but with regular martial progression?
A random thought; what if Stunt Damage was replaced with a feature that would allow you to make a Strike after making a succesful Athletics maneuver (this attack would gain the press trait), with Audacious Combatant reducing your MAP to +0 with attacks that have the press trait, but changing the daredevil to have slow martial progression like that of alchemists (expert at 7th, weapon specialization at 13th level, and master at 15th. No greater weapon specialization).
This is actually very close to what I was thinking as well. I'm currently drafting a proof of concept for a different take on the Daredevil, and you can find a sneak peek here: the basic premise here is that you get to follow up any skill attack with a fist Strike if your target is near a durable terrain feature or another creature, and this combined with a heap of maneuver feats and reduced MAP on agile attacks would be the "secret sauce" that lets the Daredevil deal damage with maneuvers when positioning properly.
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Is there room to make the daredevil into a skill class that replaces Athletics into certain skill actions? For example, Don't Mess With Me could change its trigger to "You critically succeed an Athletics check to Shove an enemy" and its effect to allow you to Demoralize the target using your Athletics modifier instead. It fits the idea of a bully that pushes people around to scare them, while also making the class less dependant on a 4th attribute.
Now that you pointed this out. The class could simply use its Class DC/Attack Roll to make its maneuvers. It would solve many of its problems but also would require a faster Class DC progression to become similar to the skill progression. It's a simple and elegant solution IMO.
One thing that I think is missing from the daredevil class for maneuvers in particular is some kind of mechanic to stretch probabilities towards either critical success or critical failure.
The class interestingly has some of this for strikes, but it doesn't apply to the maneuvers and that feels like a shame. Especially as most of the risky press maneuvers are not that incredible on critical success (with maybe the exception of head smash, although that has its own additional save component anyway), it feels like there is room to have a feat or class ability that can boost a success to critical success once an encounter, or in place of focus points or something like that.
Did anyone choose HIGH-FLYING TUMBLE STUNT? I am pretty confounded by what it is trying to do. I guess it’s tumblr through for a DD with no investment whatsoever in acrobatics? But it’s a press ability, so you have to attack someone first and suffer MAP that you don’t with tumble through, and crit failure leaves you prone, and if you were hoping for off guard, you could have just daring stunt and tripped with your first move. This is especially relevant because you are very unlikely to even have a press strike you can make with a third action to take advantage of the off guard you gain from crit success, which only lasts unti the end of the turn, unlike the off guard from daring reversal.
I just don’t understand what maneuver this feat is meant to accomplish, much less how it would ever be worth using.
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I tried to figure out HIGH-FLYING TUMBLE STUNT back in comment #10. I could not figure out a worthwhile use, so I rated it at one star.
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Yeah, in my review post I measured High-Flying Tumble Stunt worthless. I have to wonder what led to it arriving in that broken form.
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I think it was one of those “let’s give this class a way of doing a bunch of acrobatics maneuvers with athletics, and athletics with acrobatics” feats that is significantly overvaluing that skill swapping ability, especially as the class will have both of those skills trained and will be very unlikely to try to tank the attribute for either. At very high level the difference between the skills might be significant, but there are a lot of other ways to move from point a to point b. Not the least of which is to just reposition.
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I think it was one of those “let’s give this class a way of doing a bunch of acrobatics maneuvers with athletics, and athletics with acrobatics” feats
Flying Hurdle Stunt requires an Athletics check, just like Reposition. But Flying Hurdle Stunt rolls against Reflex DC and Reposition rolls against Fortitude DC.
... that is significantly overvaluing that skill swapping ability, especially as the class will have both of those skills trained and will be very unlikely to try to tank the attribute for either. At very high level the difference between the skills might be significant, but there are a lot of other ways to move from point a to point b. Not the least of which is to just reposition.
My 10th-level playtest daredevil Kittyhawk has Acrobatics +23 (+5 Dexterity, +6 master proficiency rank, +10 level, +2 Daredevil Boots) and Athletics +18 (+4 Strength, +4 expert proficiency rank, +10 level), a significant difference of 5. Her attack bonus with her kukri is +21 (+5 Dexterity, +4 expert proficiency rank, +10 level, +2 weapon potency rune).
I could have gone for master proficiency in Athletics, but the build wanted one skill increase outside of Acrobatics and Athletics, so I lacked the skill increase. Likewise, if I ignored the expected wealth of a 10th-level character, I could have bought her Armbands of Athleticism. Those two changes would have boosted her Athletics to +22.
But all her magic items--except the elixirs she crafted herself--were pulled out of a plot hole for the playtesting. Each magic item breaks her backstory, because Kittyhawk is a low-income self-trained NPC promoted to playtest character.
It would be a shame if an Acrobatics-build daredevil has to be great at Athletics to function. Alas, feats like Forceful Kickoff Stunt and Rebounding Fall Stunt don't really help the Acrobatics daredevil, since Press combined with a critical failure restricts their usefulness.
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I do think there was this implicit assumption in the playtest that we as players would commit exclusively to Athletics-focused paths, with feats to pick up Acrobatics actions using Athletics, or Acrobatics-focused paths with feats to let us do pseudo-maneuvers using the latter skill. In practice, though, it seems most of us ended up converging very quickly on builds that include both, because Athletics is essential to make good use of Daring Stunt (and maneuvers in general) and Acrobatics is essential for Tumbling Through and Kip Up later on. That I suspect is one of the experiments in the playtest material that didn't seem to go as planned.
I realized that I have been mixing up FLYING HURDLE STUNT feat 1 and HIGH-FLYING TUMBLE STUNT feat 4 in my recent responses. I am sorry about any confusion I caused. I had rated both feats at 1 star (useless), so that least I did not cause confusion about that.
The names are similar, so that could explain my mistake. But really, I see a deeper problem: the feats themselves are too bland. Flying Hurdle Stunt attempts an Athletics check against Reflex DC to swap positions with an enemy, and High-Flying Tumble Stunt attempts an Athletics check against Reflex DC to Leap through an enemy's space. Both are largely redundant with existing skill actions: Reposition and Tumble Through.
Stunt feats by a daredevil should so dramatic that I won't mix them up due to similar names.