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After seeing several criticisms, complaints, and wishes regarding Battle Forms, which will likely not be fulfilled by Paizo anytime soon, given that the next book will focus on the Slayer and Daredevil, I decided to present the solution given to Magic+ for most of the aforementioned problems, except for the martial shapeshifter issue. This is probably because the book's focus is on magic.
For those unfamiliar, Magic+ is a book written by Team+, a “publishing house that specializes in expanding content for the Pathfinder Second Edition”. This publishing house not only boasts excellent designers, as seen in Magic+ that also features collaborations with well-known writers and designers in the industry who have worked (and generally still work as freelancers) for Paizo, specifically on Pathfinder 2e materials, such as Brite Cheney, Derry Luttrell (Lost Omens Shining Kingdoms), Tony Saunders, and Mike Sayre (surname of Michael Sayre?), Mark Seifter and Linda Zayas-Palmer.
Since the book is neither OGL nor ORC, I will not copy any complete rules here, only make references to parts of them (which will give a good idea of how they work, but are not sufficient to be fully used without the book). If you liked what you're going to see in this post, I highly recommend you buy the book. It is currently sold at Pathfinder Infinity/DrivethruRPG in PDF. Especially if you have complaints about various aspects of how spells and spellcasters work in PF2e, you will probably really like this book.
Magic+, like other Team+ books, is basically a book focused on expanding the magic options in PF2e, especially addressing points that many players complain about, among them battle form spells, where it attempts to solve the problems by creating a new set of spells collectively called Aspect Forms.
The main characteristic of Aspect Forms over the system's standard battle form spells is that they are subdivided into sub-aspects that basically encompass a general characteristic that covers an entire group of creatures. For example:
The Animal Shift spell gives you access to the sub-aspects Aerial Aspect, which is a stat block that covers the general characteristics for interpreting the form of flying animals such as crows, dragonflies, or even a pterodactyl; and Aqueous Aspect, which covers the general characteristics for interpreting the form of aquatic animals such as frogs, sharks, or spinosaurs. Mount Aspect encompasses the general characteristics for interpreting the form of animals that can be ridden, such as horses, elephants, or terrorbirds, including an exception to the rule of riding allies; Predator Aspect encompasses the general characteristics for interpreting the form of predatory animals, such as bears, wolves, and cave worms.
This means that a single spell is sufficient to cover the entire family of a single trait, such as the animal in this case.
The other difference, and the most important in my opinion, is that almost all battle form statistics are based on the caster's Spell DC and Spell Attack instead of fixed values. If your attack bonus is your spell attack bonus, your AC equals your spell DC, your skill DC and bonus equals your spell DC and bonus, even your saving throws are based on your spell DC/bonus, but with extra bonuses and penalties defined by the form. You can still replace your attack and skill bonuses if your character has higher values for them, but this generally only occurs with skills that use your key attribute as a base, since your spell DC/bonus will likely be better. This solves the whole issue of battle form not progressing as the character's level constantly falls behind. Although spell proficiency progression is traditionally slower than martial attack progression and doesn't receive item bonuses, this ends up being beneficial in other aspects like AC, and in the end, most spellcasters become legendary, helping to compensate for this in the end-game.
Another good difference is that all aspect spells normally heighten up to rank 10, with other class characteristics not based on the spell's DC/bonus being based on the spell's current rank, such as damage, temporary HP, and size. Therefore, your aspect never becomes outdated like official battle form spells.
Another interesting additional feature is that many aspect spell forms can cast spells. They have a small spell list similar to the spell lists of common schools/bloodlines, etc., seen in various spellcasting classes, with the limitation that you must choose only 2 of these spells to be cast only once each, one being at least 2 ranks below your current rank, or the other being at least 3 ranks below your current rank, and they can be raised to these ranks if you wish; or you can take a form cantrip in place of one of these spells (usually the lower-rank one), casting it freely as normal, but with the restriction that your DC/plus bonus receives a -2 penalty on this cantrip.
For those who would like to save spell slots, the book also introduces the Aspect Morpher archetype, which basically allows you to cast your aspect spells using focus spells. However, unlike the druid, the feats of this aspect are not as progressive, since any aspect progresses naturally up to level 20, providing feats to broaden your options much more horizontally (providing extra aspect spell options to use with your focus point more for versatility). Furthermore, this archetype is not locked into primal tradition like the druid, thus allowing for less orthodox forms, such as constructs, oozes, and aberrations.
Unfortunately, this archetype is not a good option for those who would like to create a martial Shape Shifter because, in addition to requiring you to be able to cast a first-rank spell, the battle forms are based on your Spell DC/bonus, something a traditional martial archetype also lacks. You can still use it well in a magus, but with the exception of your attack bonus from any skills you have trained, your AC and saving throws will suffer with these options since the progression of your Spell DC/bonus is 2 levels slower than it would be in a full caster, and you will never be legendary in them. A pure martial could also gain access, but this would first require an investment in a spellcaster archetype to unlock 1st-rank spells, which means that a fighter, for example, would only have access to the archetype at level 8 and would also have the problem of the Spell DC/bonus progression at an even greater degree, leaving the battle form with a higher hit rate earlier, but with everything else severely penalized. That's why it's not worth it.
Having looked a bit at aspect spellcasting, I like how aspects set solid functional templates for different creatures and standardize certain statistics. I do, however, have a few criticisms:
The biggest philosophical disagreement I have with both aspect casting and vanilla battle forms is that they work by overriding statistics instead of enhancing them: in a game that otherwise goes to great lengths to make attributes, proficiencies, and base statistics matter, battle forms work by erasing these differences and replacing them with the same modifiers for pretty much everyone. This is why battle forms suck on martial classes, because the modifiers they offer are generally inferior to what those classes already have. It also leads to really counter-intuitive situations where battle forms like avatar are at their worst on classes already built to be decent at martial combat, like the Warpriest, and at their best on classes who are normally terrible at fighting.
Although the argument given in discussion is that these overrides are there to help casters with their generally poor statistics for attacks and AC, I don't actually think this is a good reason: rather, I think this ought to justify having those battle forms give significant bonuses, enough to make the Druid and Warpriest at the very least capable combatants in battle forms. If Wizards or Sorcerers end up not being great at using battle forms, which I think is already the case given their weak defenses, then so be it, so long as classes built with some degree of fighting capability in mind thrive with those spells.
* Aspect battle forms are still not great to use outside of max rank, as they give a penalty to your checks and DCs while in the form for every rank below half your level rounded up at which you cast the spell.
Yes, and this is intended. The main idea is that you cannot use a full powered battle form just with a rank 1 cheap scroll or something like that.
In practice is a complicated way to say “don't cast lower rank battle form spells”.
And they give the alternative of if you want to save your top rank spell slots you have the option to use a focus spell instead, but you need to be a druid with untamed order or take the Aspect Morpher dedication.
The biggest philosophical disagreement I have with both aspect casting and vanilla battle forms is that they work by overriding statistics instead of enhancing them: in a game that otherwise goes to great lengths to make attributes, proficiencies, and base statistics matter, battle forms work by erasing these differences and replacing them with the same modifiers for pretty much everyone. This is why battle forms suck on martial classes, because the modifiers they offer are generally inferior to what those classes already have. It also leads to really counter-intuitive situations where battle forms like avatar are at their worst on classes already built to be decent at martial combat, like the Warpriest, and at their best on classes who are normally terrible at fighting.
Although the argument given in discussion is that these overrides are there to help casters with their generally poor statistics for attacks and AC, I don't actually think this is a good reason: rather, I think this ought to justify having those battle forms give significant bonuses, enough to make the Druid and Warpriest at the very least capable combatants in battle forms. If Wizards or Sorcerers end up not being great at using battle forms, which I think is already the case given their weak defenses, then so be it, so long as classes built with some degree of fighting capability in mind thrive with those spells.
Despite your dislike of the argument, the idea is this: to allow any spellcaster to use a battle form to fight on the front lines without needing to make focused investments in it, that is, without depending on their attributes being physical (although constitution still positively affects the form) and a whole set of items to give them physical combat bonuses.
Battle forms don't give bonuses, and honestly I think they never will in Pathfinder 2e, because it risks becoming a kind of stylized heroism spell, mixed with the monk's battle stances. In other words, it would give some status bonus to attacks, defense, and saving throws, which would also risk becoming one of the most powerful buffs in the game. And Paizo's designers don't want that, because besides not working well for spellcasters in general, who would be forced to build their characters around a single spell, combatants would be over-benefited with a super powerful set of bonuses that could easily overshadow other combat styles.
In fact, if and when Paizo ever makes a Shape Shifter class or archetype focused on martial characters, it will most likely resemble the animal barbarian, using the standard stats of a martial character along with some temporary HP, specific unarmed attacks, and additional damage. The main difference would probably be in the feat set, which would likely be based on the abilities of different creatures (similar to what an eidolon gains, but probably better and more diverse) instead of combat techniques like the fighter and the monk gain.
Yes, and this is intended. The main idea is that you cannot use a full powered battle form just with a rank 1 cheap scroll or something like that.
But you’re not full-powered, as your attacks and other abilities won’t heighten. Making battle forms auto-scale only to impose a stacking penalty is one of those overcomplicated elements that Team+’s content gets occasional criticism for.
Despite your dislike of the argument, the idea is this: to allow any spellcaster to use a battle form to fight on the front lines without needing to make focused investments in it, that is, without depending on their attributes being physical (although constitution still positively affects the form) and a whole set of items to give them physical combat bonuses.
As already stated, I understand the argument just fine, I just think it’s not a good one. Squishy casters are already bad at using battle forms due to their poor HP and saves, and trying to make them good at doing things they’re absolutely not built for is doomed to either fail, as I think happens with aspect casting too, or be monstrously overpowered. Meanwhile, the two classes made to use battle forms effectively are also the two casters encouraged to build for Strength alongside their usual stats.
Battle forms don't give bonuses, and honestly I think they never will in Pathfinder 2e, because it risks becoming a kind of stylized heroism spell, mixed with the monk's battle stances. In other words, it would give some status bonus to attacks, defense, and saving throws, which would also risk becoming one of the most powerful buffs in the game. And Paizo's designers don't want that, because besides not working well for spellcasters in general, who would be forced to build their characters around a single spell, combatants would be over-benefited with a super powerful set of bonuses that could easily overshadow other combat styles.
I have developed and playtested battle forms that follow the exact model you are crying wolf about, and they worked significantly better than existing spells on the Animist and Druid, the two classes who actually use battle forms consistently. Although the bonuses benefited martial classes, the limitations of battle forms meant heroism remained by far the better buff spell overall. Even squishier casters, who weren’t damage powerhouses with those spells by any means, still found some of them situationally beneficial for their defenses.
In fact, if and when Paizo ever makes a Shape Shifter class or archetype focused on martial characters, it will most likely resemble the animal barbarian, using the standard stats of a martial character along with some temporary HP, specific unarmed attacks, and additional damage. The main difference would probably be in the feat set, which would likely be based on the abilities of different creatures (similar to what an eidolon gains, but probably better and more diverse) instead of combat techniques like the fighter and the monk gain
Having also developed, playtested, and Foundry-packaged a Shifter class, I certainly agree that the class ought to use a martial chassis, a different model from battle forms, and feats that emulate monster abilities, though I find the Animal Barbarian comparison to be fairly reductive. The Shifter can and should be so much more than just a damage bonus, and their power should come from the unique abilities of their forms in my opinion.
Battle forms don't give bonuses, and honestly I think they never will in Pathfinder 2e, because it risks becoming a kind of stylized heroism spell, mixed with the monk's battle stances. In other words, it would give some status bonus to attacks, defense, and saving throws, which would also risk becoming one of the most powerful buffs in the game. And Paizo's designers don't want that, because besides not working well for spellcasters in general, who would be forced to build their characters around a single spell, combatants would be over-benefited with a super powerful set of bonuses that could easily overshadow other combat styles.have developed and playtested battle forms that follow the exact model you are crying wolf about, and they worked significantly better than existing spells on the Animist and Druid, the two classes who actually use battle forms consistently. Although the bonuses benefited martial classes, the limitations of battle forms meant heroism remained by far the better buff spell overall. Even squishier casters, who weren’t damage powerhouses with those spells by any means, still found some of them situationally beneficial for their defenses.
It's interesting, but as I thought, it's become kind of a super buff!
Basically, the caster takes the form of a creature, gains the bonuses from Heroism but with the Heightened ability at a lower rank, and includes AC bonuses + Runic Body and the unarmed attacks of the form + Enlarge, but without the Clumsy condition.
It creates an incentive for the caster to have a high Strength score just to cast this spell, which necessarily forces them to sacrifice AC or HP.
At the same time, if a martial character has access to this, such as via the Druid archetype, they can easily obtain this entire buff at the cost of spending 1 Focus point and restricting attacks to unarmed attacks with d8 and d4 quick damage, but with both hands free, but without being able to use items that require hands. This, in general, defeats the purpose of spells like Heroism, Runic Body, and Enlarge, since it unifies them all into a single spellcasting, automatically heightened when used as a Focus spell. To give an example, I'll make some comparisons here. Correct me if I've made any mistakes:
Attack Proficiency:
LvL 1: Martial 7(8)|Animal Shift 7(8)
LvL 2: Martial 9(10)|Animal Shift 8(10)
LvL 3: Martial 10(11)|Animal Form 10(11)|Animal Shift 9(10)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 7| Str 3 Caster - Homebrew 10
LvL 4: Martial 11(12)|Animal Form 10(11)|Animal Shift 10(11)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 8| Str 3 Caster - Homebrew 11| Str 4 Martial - Homebrew 12
LvL 5: Martial 14(15)|Animal Form 14(15)|Animal Shift 11(12)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 9| Str 4 Caster - Homebrew 13| Str 4 Martial - Homebrew 15
LvL 6: Martial 15(16)|Animal Form 14(15)|Animal Shift 12(13)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 10|Str 4 Caster - Homebrew 14| Str 4 Martial - Homebrew 16
LvL 7: Martial 16(17)|Insect Form 16(17)|Animal Shift 15(16)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 11|Str 4 Caster - Homebrew 15| Str 4 Martial - Homebrew 17
LvL 8: Martial 17(18)|Animal/Insect/Dinosaur/Aerial Form 16(17)|Animal Shift 16(17)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 12|Str 4 Caster - Homebrew 16| Str 4 Martial - Homebrew 18
LvL 9: Martial 18(19)|Animal/Insect/Dinosaur/Aerial Form 18(19)|Animal Shift 17(18)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 14|Str 4 Caster - Homebrew 18| Str 4 Martial - Homebrew 20
LvL 10: Martial 21(22)|Animal/Insect/Dinosaur/Aerial/Elemental Form 18(19)|Animal Shift 19(20)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 15|Str 4 Caster - Homebrew 19| Str 5 Martial - Homebrew 22
LvL 11: Martial 22(24)|Elemental Form 23(25)|Animal Shift 20(22)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 19|Str 4 Caster - Homebrew 23| Str 5 Martial - Homebrew 24
LvL 12: Martial 23(25)|Elemental Form 23(25)|Animal Shift 21(23)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 20|Str 4 Caster - Homebrew 24| Str 5 Martial - Homebrew 25
LvL 13: Martial 26(28)|Dinosaur/Elemental Form 25(27)|Animal Shift 22(24)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 21|Str 4 Caster - Homebrew 25| Str 5 Martial - Homebrew 28
LvL 14: Martial 27(29)|Dinosaur/Elemental Form 25(27)|Animal Shift 23(25)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 22|Str 4 Caster - Homebrew 26| Str 5 Martial - Homebrew 29
LvL 15: Martial 28(30)|Dragon Form 28(30)|Animal Shift 26(28)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 24|Str 5 Caster - Homebrew 29| Str 5 Martial - Homebrew 31
LvL 16: Martial 30(32)|Dragon/Monstrosity Form 28(30)|Animal Shift 27(29)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 25|Str 5 Caster - Homebrew 30| Str 5 Martial - Homebrew 32
LvL 17: Martial 32(35)|Monstrosity Form 31(34)|Animal Shift 29(32)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 27|Str 6 Caster - Homebrew 33| Str 6 Martial - Homebrew 35
LvL 18: Martial 33(36)|Monstrosity Form 31(34)|Animal Shift 30(33)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 28|Str 6 Caster - Homebrew 34| Str 6 Martial - Homebrew 36
LvL 19: Martial 34(37)|Monstrosity Form 31(34)|Animal Shift 33(36)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 29|Str 6 Caster - Homebrew 35| Str 6 Martial - Homebrew 37
LvL 20: Martial 36(39)|Nature Incarnate 34(37)|Animal Shift 35(38)| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew 30|Str 6 Caster - Homebrew 36| Str 6 Martial - Homebrew 39
() Parentheses value are if it was getting a status bonus from spells like courageous anthem, bless, heroism and girzanje's march.
I understood that your idea is to be more fair to casters that invest into physical stats in place of its key attribute but in practice, if the caster didn't highly invest into str/dex it's useless, during levels 3-14 it isn't really better than the official battle forms or even animal shift, it already benefits from status bonus that isn't accounted above, what means that both official battle forms and animal shift can still benefit from it and if taken by a martial it simply becomes a cheap heroism + enlarge without AC penalty that heightens earlier.
Damage Comparison (barb using d8, animal shift using d8, homebrew using d8(rank 1-3) and d12 (rank 4-9) and Nature Incarnate 6d12):
LvL 1: Barbarian 14.5|Animal Shift 6.5
LvL 2: Barbarian 14.5|Animal Shift 6.5
LvL 3: Barbarian 14.5|Animal Form 10|Animal Shift 8.5| Homebrew Caster Str 0:10/Str 3:13
LvL 4: Barbarian 19|Animal Form 10|Animal Shift 8.5| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:10/Str 3:13
LvL 5: Barbarian 19|Animal Form 14|Animal Shift 18| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:10/Str 4:14
LvL 6: Barbarian 19|Animal Form 14|Animal Shift 18| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:10/Str 4:14
LvL 7: Barbarian 25|Animal Form 18|Animal Shift 21| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:14/Str 4:18
LvL 8: Barbarian 25+3.5|Animal Form 18+3.5*|Animal Shift 21+3.5*| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:14/Str 4:18 + 3.5
LvL 9: Barbarian 25+3.5|Animal Form 25+3.5*|Animal Shift 24+3.5*| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:15/Str 4:19 + 3.5
LvL 10: Barbarian 26+7|Animal Form 25+7*|Animal Shift 24+7*| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:15/Str 4:19 + 7
LvL 11: Barbarian 26+7|Elemental Form 24+7*|Animal Shift 27+7*| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:21.5/Str 4:25.5 + 7
LvL 12: Barbarian 30.5+7|Elemental Form 24+7*|Animal Shift 27+7*| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:21.5/Str 4:25.5 + 7
LvL 13: Barbarian 31.5+7|Dinosaur Form 33+7*|Animal Shift 34.5+7*| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:23.5/Str 4:27.5 + 7
LvL 14: Barbarian 31.5+7|Dinosaur Form 33+7*|Animal Shift 34.5+7*| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:23.5/Str 4:27.5 + 7
LvL 15: Barbarian 42.5+7|Dragon Form 32+7*|Animal Shift 37.5+7*| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:24.5/Str 5:29.5 + 7
LvL 16: Barbarian 42.5+10,5|Monstrosity Form 33+10.5*|Animal Shift 37.5+10.5*| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:24.5/Str 5:29.5 + 10.5
LvL 17: Barbarian 43.5+10,5|Monstrosity Form 36,5+10.5*|Animal Shift 40.5+10.5*| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:31/Str 6:37 + 10.5
LvL 18: Barbarian 43.5+14|Monstrosity Form 36,5+10.5*|Animal Shift 40.5+10.5*| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:31/Str 6:37 + 10.5
LvL 19: Barbarian 48+14|Monstrosity Form 36,5+10.5*|Animal Shift 48+10.5*| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:41/Str 6:47 + 10.5
LvL 20: Barbarian 49+14|Nature Incarnate 31+10.5*|Animal Shift 48+10.5*| Str 0 Caster - Homebrew Str 0:41/Str 6:47 + 10.5
Here is where your homebrew is basically a penalty to casters that not invest into str. Also during levels 9-10 and 13-16 it stays behind the original battle forms but show real good damage at levels 19-20 where the original battle forms have their end-game problems. Comparing with Animal Shift the homebrew simply stays behind between level 5-18 and similar in last 2 levels. I didn't add martials with your battle forms this time due to the way they was write they basically are the marcial + 1-3 status bonus.
AC Comparison:
LvL 1: Martial 18|Shift 17
LvL 2: Martial 20|Shift 18
LvL 3: Martial 21|Animal Form 19|Shift 19|Caster 19/20/21**
LvL 4: Martial 22|Animal Form 20|Shift 20|Caster 20/21/22**
LvL 5: Martial 24|Animal Form 22|Shift 21|Caster 22/23/24**
LvL 6: Martial 25|Animal Form 23|Shift 22|Caster 23/24/25**
LvL 7: Martial 26|Animal/Insect Form 25|Shift 25|Caster 24/25/26**
LvL 8: Martial 27|Animal/Insect/Dinosaur/Aerial Form 26|Shift 26|Caster 25/26/27**
LvL 9: Martial 28|Animal/Insect/Dinosaur/Aerial Form 27|Shift 27|Caster 26/27/28**
LvL 10: Martial 29|Elemental Form 29|Shift 29|Caster 27/28/29**
LvL 11: Martial 31/33*|Elemental Form 33|Shift 30|Caster 29/30/31**
LvL 12: Martial 32/34*|Elemental Form 34|Shift 31|Caster 30/31/32**
LvL 13: Martial 35|Elemental Form 35|Shift 32|Caster 33/34/35**
LvL 14: Martial 36|Elemental Form 36|Shift 33|Caster 34/35/36**
LvL 15: Martial 37|Dragon Form 36|Shift 36|Caster 36/36/37**
LvL 16: Martial 38|Dragon Form 37|Shift 37|Caster 37/37/38**
LvL 17: Martial 39/41*|Monstrosity Form 39|Shift 39|Caster 38/38/39**
LvL 18: Martial 41/43*|Monstrosity Form 40|Shift 40|Caster 40/40/41**
LvL 19: Martial 44|Monstrosity Form 41|Shift 43|Caster 41/41/42**
LvL 20: Martial 45|Nature Incarnate 45|Shift 45|Caster 42/42/43**
* Some non-tank martials improves their AC proficiency 2 levels earlier.
** unarmored/light-medium/heavy
Homebrew here just use the character AC. Here we don't see big differences between casters default AC and original battle forms original AC, with some interesting points. Original battle forms AC in general is the same of an unarmored until level 6, then switches to be the same as a light/medium armored and then becomes equals to heavy armored up to 10, after this the battle forms becomes the same of heavy armored martials due the slow caster armor proficiency but then when elemental form no more heightens, and we are forced to switch to dragon and monstrosity forms they back to use the values of casters with non-heavy armors, only when use Nature Incarnate that the original battle forms back to use the martial heavy armor value. Magic+ AC progression have a strange problem due to the usage of spell DC as AC. During levels 5, 6, 13, 14 it becomes even lower than unarmored but for other side due to it getting legendary at level 19, 20 it becomes competitive with martials and Nature Incarnate with the benefit that you don't necessarily needs to use a rank 10 slot.
Athletics comparison (ABP):
LvL 1: Martial 7|Shift 7
LvL 2: Martial 8|Shift 8
LvL 3: Martial 12|Str Caster 11|Shift 10|Animal Form 9
LvL 4: Martial 13|Str Caster 12|Shift 11|Animal Form 9
LvL 5: Martial 14|Str Caster 14|Shift 12|Animal Form 14
LvL 6: Martial 15|Str Caster 15|Shift 13|Animal Form 14
LvL 7: Martial 18|Str Caster 18|Shift 16|Animal/Insect Form 16
LvL 8: Martial 19|Str Caster 19|Shift 17|Dinosaur Form 18
LvL 9: Martial 21|Str Caster 21|Shift 19|Dinosaur Form 20
LvL 10: Martial 23|Str Caster 22|Shift 21|Elemental Form 20
LvL 11: Martial 24|Str Caster 23|Shift 22|Elemental Form 23
LvL 12: Martial 25|Str Caster 24|Shift 23|Elemental Form 23
LvL 13: Martial 26|Str Caster 25|Shift 24|Elemental Form 25
LvL 14: Martial 27|Str Caster 26|Shift 25|Elemental Form 25
LvL 15: Martial 30|Str Caster 30|Shift 28|Dragon Form 28
LvL 16: Martial 31|Str Caster 31|Shift 29|Dragon/Monstrosity Form 28
LvL 17: Martial 34|Str Caster 34|Shift 32|Monstrosity Form 28
LvL 18: Martial 35|Str Caster 35|Shift 33|Monstrosity Form 33
LvL 19: Martial 36|Str Caster 36|Shift 36|Monstrosity Form 33
LvL 20: Martial 38|Str Caster 37|Shift 38|Nature Incarnate 36
In athletics is where we see how heavily the homebrew punishes the non-str focused casters. While the original battle forms gives some good athletics bonus to use if you don't have a good str or proficiency in athletics, your homebrew simply give a bonus equal to the character level if it is not trained in athletics and even if it's trained the battle form doesn't change this at all just add up to +3 from a status bonus that is good but far from you get from both original battle form and magic+ Aspect Form options.
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In general your homebrew solution is interesting Teridax but in order to value the physical focused casters you punishes way more the traditional casters. Also I didn't find your battle forms for str focused casters that significantly advantageous using your homebrew, instead casters that get a druid dedication that will be over benefited from a super buff that only costs a focus point.
Another thing that I noticed in this comparison is that the Aspect Form is also not so better than original battle forms, except for the fact that it doesn't broke at 5 last level like original battle forms does. They also get 2 things that I didn't considered in this comparison that is every Aspect Form get some special ability at rank 4 and 8 including some of then becoming able to cast some spells what's pretty cool while the original battle forms basically get a breath weapon or similar when you are able to use dragon and monstrosity forms.
It's interesting, but as I thought, it's become kind of a super buff!
Basically, the caster takes the form of a creature, gains the bonuses from Heroism but with the Heightened ability at a lower rank, and includes AC bonuses + Runic Body and the unarmed attacks of the form + Enlarge, but without the Clumsy condition.
Correct, but none of their spellcasting, nor any of the capabilities of martial classes that make them stand out. Even with the improved heightening, the gap between both remains.
It creates an incentive for the caster to have a high Strength score just to cast this spell, which necessarily forces them to sacrifice AC or HP.
What's that? Classes being incentivized to build for the role they want to play? With meaningful tradeoffs, no less? Say it ain't so!
But also, as already pointed out, these battle form spells worked out really nicely on the Animist, Druid, and Warpriest, the three caster builds already geared towards gish fighting. They weren't outperforming martial classes, but they certainly felt competent when using battle forms, which I'd say is valid considering that they're better-built for the playstyle they enable than most casters.
At the same time, if a martial character has access to this, such as via the Druid archetype, they can easily obtain this entire buff at the cost of spending 1 Focus point and restricting attacks to unarmed attacks with d8 and d4 quick damage, but with both hands free, but without being able to use items that require hands. This, in general, defeats the purpose of spells like Heroism, Runic Body, and Enlarge, since it unifies them all into a single spellcasting, automatically heightened when used as a Focus spell. To give an example, I'll make some comparisons here. Correct me if I've made any mistakes:
Gladly, starting with the fact that you've completely missed how my implementation of battle form spells doesn't give you hands by default. Neither of your hands are free, and you can't use Athletics maneuvers, not unless the form allows you to. You also, by the way, cannot speak or use most concentrate actions, so your capabilities are in fact extremely limited in a way those buff spells you list do not entail.
Damage Comparison (barb using d8, animal shift using d8, homebrew using d8(rank 1-3) and d12 (rank 4-9) and Nature Incarnate 6d12):
Your math is wrong, as you visibly did not include the status bonus to damage rolls given by my homebrew battle forms.
Homebrew here just use the character AC.
Lol no, it doesn't, you gain a status bonus to AC. Your math is wrong here too.
Athletics comparison (ABP):
Your math here is also wrong; a Strength caster with an appropriate item bonus to Athletics would have a modifier of +39 at level 20 with the status bonus. I'm not sure what exactly you got wrong here, nor why you didn't list the modifier for a zero-Strength, zero-Athletics character, but that's three for three at this stage.
In general your homebrew solution is interesting Teridax but in order to value the physical focused casters you punishes way more the traditional casters. Also I didn't find your battle forms for str focused casters that significantly advantageous using your homebrew, instead casters that get a druid dedication that will be over benefited from a super buff that only costs a focus point.
Of course you wouldn't find those battle forms appealing on any caster when you're not including half the bonuses or doing the math properly. I also ask you: which "traditional caster" makes good use of battle forms right now? Because the only casters I can think of who'd want to use a battle form right now are the Animist and Druid, and only because they don't have to use spell slots on those and have the defenses to actually survive in melee. I'm not particularly sure why we need to make battle forms terrible on the vast majority of classes in the game just so that they can be still terrible, though marginally less so, on casters who have no business putting themselves in the front lines.
Your math is wrong, as you visibly did not include the status bonus to damage rolls given by my homebrew battle forms.
The Status bonus is already included in the math.
Lol no, it doesn't, you gain a status bonus to AC. Your math is wrong here too.
Your homebrew doesn't mention AC anywhere. I made a search for AC and Armor Class, and it doesn't find anything.
https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/LR_niyzqyK0XYour math here is also wrong; a Strength caster with an appropriate item bonus to Athletics would have a modifier of +39 at level 20 with the status bonus. I'm not sure what exactly you got wrong here, nor why you didn't list the modifier for a zero-Strength, zero-Athletics character, but that's three for three at this stage.
Because 0 Str and untrained will just be a level value. There's no need to list it. I could make a no Str trained -> Legendary but it would be too low anyway.
And in fact I forgot to add the status bonus to athletics of the Str caster:
The correct would be the same values with +1 to levels 3-8, +2 to levels 9-14 and +3 to levels 15-20.
Gladly, starting with the fact that you've completely missed how my implementation of battle form spells doesn't give you hands by default
Well you can always be an Ape! :P
Anyway it's a bit strange implementation that I really didn't notice before. But you completely removed the hands in your homebrew.
The original battle form doesn't do this, in order to allow the usage of athletics as attack it just prevents to use manipulate actions that require hands (it doesn't remove your hands in terms of gameplay) but not the athletics' attack actions like Shove, Trip, Relocate and Grab. Probably because even the forms without hands still can do such maneuvers with their jaws and claws.
The Status bonus is already included in the math.
When why does your 0-Strength caster example list 41 damage at level 20? That particular instance would be 44 damage: 6 x 6.5 (so 39), plus 2 from weapon specialization, plus 3 from the battle form.
Your homebrew doesn't mention AC anywhere. I made a search for AC and Armor Class, and it doesn't find anything.
Yes, it does. Page 2, Battle Form section, status subsection:
Your physical abilities are enhanced in your form, granting you a +1 status bonus to AC, attack and damage rolls you make with your form’s listed attacks, and Athletics checks. You can add your level to checks you make with this status bonus even if you’re untrained. This status bonus increases to +2 if the spell is 5th-rank or higher, and +3 if the spell is 8th-rank or higher. Use half the effect’s level rounded up if it’s not a spell.
It's in the same section that lists the battle form's status bonus to every other statistic.
Anyway it's a bit strange implementation that I really didn't notice before. But you completely removed the hands in your homebrew.
The original battle form doesn't do this, in order to allow the usage of athletics as attack it just prevents to use manipulate actions that require hands (it doesn't remove your hands in terms of gameplay) but not the athletics' attack actions like Shove, Trip, Relocate and Grab. Probably because even the forms without hands still can do such maneuvers with their jaws and claws.
I don't really think it's all that strange, personally. If you transform into a fish or the like, you're not going to have hands to use, and what maneuvers you can make will likely be tied to your attacks. Mechanically, restricting the use of hands, speech, and concentration also creates severe limits that prevent the bonuses my battle forms provide from exceeding the benefits of existing spells. It also means that when a form does give hands, as with animal form's ape form, it can come at a significant tradeoff, in this case the ape having a weaker attack and lower Speeds than other forms. This also means that if you choose to use battle forms as a martial class, you're not just powering up as you would with heroism, you're largely restricting yourself to what the form can do.
The Status bonus is already included in the math.When why does your 0-Strength caster example list 41 damage at level 20? That particular instance would be 44 damage: 6 x 6.5 (so 39), plus 2 from weapon specialization, plus 3 from the battle form.
Because I made all this by hand, and sometimes I make mistakes. In this case, I forgot to add the status bonus when I made the math of homebrew's Nature Incarnate. The rest of the columns is right.
Yes, it does. Page 2, Battle Form section, status subsection:Your homebrew doesn't mention AC anywhere. I made a search for AC and Armor Class, and it doesn't find anything.
Your physical abilities are enhanced in your form, granting you a +1 status bonus to AC, attack and damage rolls you make with your form’s listed attacks, and Athletics checks. You can add your level to checks you make with this status bonus even if you’re untrained. This status bonus increases to +2 if the spell is 5th-rank or higher, and +3 if the spell is 8th-rank or higher. Use half the effect’s level rounded up if it’s not a spell.It's in the same section that lists the battle form's status bonus to every other statistic.
Sorry, only now I notice that my browser search function for some reason wasn't searching when I just put 2 characters.
In fact adding Status bonus, that's a rare bonus to take with spells, progressively increases the AC to a point that it can even compete with legendary armor proficiency like monks, guardians and champions. Yet this also reinforce my other point if a martial takes the Untamed Form focus spell it will be an overpowered 2-actions buff with a 1 minute duration.
I don't really think it's all that strange, personally. If you transform into a fish or the like, you're not going to have hands to use, and what maneuvers you can make will likely be tied to your attacks. Mechanically, restricting the use of hands, speech, and concentration also creates severe limits that prevent the bonuses my battle forms provide from exceeding the benefits of existing spells. It also means that when a form does give hands, as with animal form's ape form, it can come at a significant tradeoff, in this case the ape having a weaker attack and lower Speeds than other forms. This also means that if you choose to use battle forms as a martial class, you're not just powering up as you would with heroism, you're largely restricting yourself to what the form can do.Anyway it's a bit strange implementation that I really didn't notice before. But you completely removed the hands in your homebrew.
The original battle form doesn't do this, in order to allow the usage of athletics as attack it just prevents to use manipulate actions that require hands (it doesn't remove your hands in terms of gameplay) but not the athletics' attack actions like Shove, Trip, Relocate and Grab. Probably because even the forms without hands still can do such maneuvers with their jaws and claws.
I understood your point. I still think that this restricts in some more than the ideal. I still can see a Cat/Cannine form being able to trip and grab using its Jaws. But like the solution that you give for bears adding grapple to its claw attacks also because such traits are basically useless when put in unarmed attack but when you “don't have hands" they become more interesting. Maybe if you just are more generous in such traits the thing may more interesting.
The other point is that you reduced the avg damage to most animal by 1 dice size smaller in general in comparison to the original battle form for a battle form that's already restricted to not use hands. Probably because we already have the Status bonus, but maybe the ideal isn't the opposite? Once that you are more restricted to use athletics, should the damage size be higher?
Also, there are some strange balance like, Dryads getting a d12 dice and free hands. OK, you don't get a status bonus to your Athletics once it's moved to Acrobatics, but in general this makes me feel that I need to take other forms in order to get stronger and that is the most hated thing in the original battle forms. The fact that you are forced to abandon your old form spell because it doesn't heighten anymore an one of the main reasons that make me like the Aspect Forms.
Your homebrew doesn't hard force like the official battle forms does simply not heighten anymore but still gives a pressure if you want to become stronger you need to take another form (what make sense due the higher rank of the form yet still looks like a soft force to change). Maybe should be a best option to standardize the forms to become more a lower rank option like Aspect Forms did (most of them are rank 1) and only put in higher rank the forms that have more horizontal abilities instead of increase their vertical power (feys could cast some spell or have a limited special ability not just passives and a higher damage)?
This also made notice that due a mandella effect I used fey form in the comparison when I wanted to restrict it only to battle forms available to Untamed Form. My bad.
Because I made all this by hand, and sometimes I make mistakes. In this case, I forgot to add the status bonus when I made the math of homebrew's Nature Incarnate. The rest of the columns is right.
I think you could benefit from automating this somewhat, but please understand that this is also not the only mistake in the assessment you've made, it is in fact full of them, several of which would normally warrant adjusting your conclusions. Case in point:
Sorry, only now I notice that my browser search function for some reason wasn't searching when I just put 2 characters.
In fact adding Status bonus, that's a rare bonus to take with spells, progressively increases the AC to a point that it can even compete with legendary armor proficiency like monks, guardians and champions. Yet this also reinforce my other point if a martial takes the Untamed Form focus spell it will be an overpowered 2-actions buff with a 1 minute duration.
When you take both an argument and its opposite to argue the same conclusion, it gives the impression that your conclusion is predetermined, and that the arguments and numbers you produce are merely window dressing. In this particular instance, your prior argument was that the spell was bad because it punished casters, now it's bad because it's too good on martials: it's not just that this once again ignores the many restrictions and downgrades that would prevent martials from making use of their full abilities in the same respect as with a heroism spell, there's still a fundamental refusal to accept that this design was made with a different design philosophy from the other battle form spells, specifically one that doesn't cater to the squishy cloth casters you seem to think need to be good users of battle forms. They don't need to be, and they certainly aren't right now.
The other point is that you reduced the avg damage to most animal by 1 dice size smaller in general in comparison to the original battle form for a battle form that's already restricted to not use hands. Probably because we already have the Status bonus, but maybe the ideal isn't the opposite? Once that you are more restricted to use athletics, should the damage size be higher?
The status bonus is the reason, not just to damage but to AC. A Druid or Animist using this would have a +2 to their AC over the current animal form.
Also, there are some strange balance like, Dryads getting a d12 dice and free hands.
Their melee branch attack is their literal only attack, plus they gain no truly beneficial Speeds. Compare this to the other forms, which have significant other benefits.
Your homebrew doesn't hard force like the official battle forms does simply not heighten anymore but still gives a pressure if you want to become stronger you need to take another form (what make sense due the higher rank of the form yet still looks like a soft force to change).
At 6th rank, you get to become Gargantuan with animal form, and several other form spells give you similar size increases and other benefits. I even combined elemental form with element embodied, letting you gain the benefits of the latter spell when using that battle form at 10th-rank. While spells are implicitly balanced to scale non-linearly, a rule I see no reason to break with battle forms, even the lowest-rank battle form spells in my brew heighten well by nature, much like heightening any good low-rank spell. Importantly, casting a low-rank version of these spells does not downgrade your character's stats, a problem inherent to both vanilla battle forms and aspect casting.