I can’t take credit for this idea. The person who inspired this was foxoftheasterisk in this discussion.
And now I have a bold idea of my own to propose. Like how the old CDs can be paired with Ultimate decks, the new Essential decks can be paid with a new kind: Archetype decks! These would feature both archetypes that were classes in 1E—such as Cavalier and Vigilante—but also new and more eccentric ones like Gladiator, Acrobat, and Field Propagandist. Like the Ultimate decks, these Archetype decks would include one new character that exemplifies the titled archetype, but the real focus would be a number of new archetype roles (I'm thinking three) that can be applied to any character, like Blackjack in Curse! (For example, the Vigilante archetype deck might include the Vigilante, Dandy, and Assassin archetype roles.)
I'm thinking you can pair any two of the five deck types together (Class/Character, Ultimate, Essential, Archetype, and Adventurer's Pack); also that only the old Class/Character decks get two packs, all others only one. Also thinking that, once we have Essential decks for the twelve Core classes, Adventurer's Packs would be removed as an option for new characters.
I have to admit that I was a bit confused by this at first. I was approaching it from my understanding of the first edition of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, and the archetypes were represented in the role cards. For example, Magus CD Seltyiel’s Bladebound role comes from the archetype of the same name in the Ultimate Magic rulebook and his Myrmidarch role comes from the archetype of the same name in the Ultimate Combat rulebook. Meanwhile, Fighter CD Tontelizi is based on the Polearm Master archetype in the Advanced Player’s Guide, with his Halberdier role realizing that archetype to its fullest.
Here’s a secret: I’ve never played the PFRPG. I have hundreds of dollars’ worth of PFRPG rulebooks, however, because I figure that understand the roleplaying game will help me to ensure that my PACG homegrown rules efforts remain faithful to the setting. PACG was killed just as the 2nd edition of the PFRPG came out, so while I have a few of the rulebooks, I never examined them in any depth. So I didn’t realize that archetypes had changed in the second edition of the game. Seeing foxoftheasterisk’s idea, I felt compelled to research the second edition in a little more depth (spending a lot more money to get more of the rulebooks in the process). After learning about the changes, I realized that foxoftheasterisk’s idea is brilliant. And while my larger hopes and dreams for the future of PACG might not ever be realized (see the linked discussion if you’re curious), foxoftheasterisk’s idea might result in something that we could make happen right now, even if only in an unofficial fan-driven capacity.
I’m looking at this less in terms of deck’s (foxoftheasterisk’s idea) and more as roles.
The way I see it, we could create role cards for the various archetypes from PFRPG 2e, making them available on Drive Thru Cards. This would give players a little more variety in their continued playing of the game.
The model for this idea is the Batman Blackjack role, which one character may select instead of one of their usual roles while playing the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP. Where Blackjack represents a sort of Vigilante archetype, under this model, instead of choosing one of their usual roles, a character may choose a multiclass archetype role. They would retain their base powers representing their original class, but would then add new feats representing their progression in an additional class. Like the Blackjack role card, these multiclass archetype role cards would have only 8 power feats, with the base 4 power feats remaining valid.
This creates a very interesting design space and poses some interesting challenges. Some characters are more suited to certain multiclass archetypes than others. Also, the mechanics of the PFRPG are different from those of the PACG. Where a multiclass archetype might be adopted at the 2nd level in PFRPG, roles are typically selected after completing adventure 3 in PACG, and that’s roughly equivalent to the 10th level (?) in the PFRPG. The PACG isn’t a roleplaying game, but it represents concepts of the PFRPG at an abstract level.
The three main challenges I see are in the areas of skills/subskills, deck lists, and proficiencies.
Fighters, for example, typically have the Melee subskill, a lot of weapons and armor cards on their deck lists, and weapon and armor proficiencies. Characters from other classes/backgrounds might not have those, so a Fighter Multiclass Archetype role would somehow have to confer those for the character to accurately represent the concept. Meanwhile, Wizards typically have a high Intelligence skill and the Arcane subskill, a lot of spells on their decks lists, and the Arcane proficiency. Since other characters often don’t have those, a Wizard Multiclass Archetype role would somehow have to confer them. And since any character from any class/background might adopt any of the Multiclass Archetype roles (minus the one for their actual class – that would be dumb), each Multiclass Archetype role would have to allow for that variation.
Alternately, there might be multiple such roles for certain classes, allowing players to choose the one that works best for them. And I could see this concept applying to prestige classes (or whatever that concept in PFRPG 2e) and subclasses. Taking the PFRPG 1e concept of prestige classes, use the Hellknight as an example. The Hell’s Vengeance Character Deck 1 gave us Linxia, whose class trait is Hellknight. She has two roles: Enforcer and Knight of the Rack. The character and her roles do a great job of representing a “pure” Hellknight. In PFRPG 1e, the Hellknights were represented by two prestige classes. The Hellknight prestige class was found in the Inner Sea World Guide and represented combat-oriented Hellknights, often coming from classes like the Cavalier and Fighter. Hellknight Signifers, meanwhile, were spellcasting Hellknights found in the Paths of Prestige rulebook. Such Hellknights might come from various arcane and divine spellcasting backgrounds such as Wizards, Clerics, etc. So instead of a single Hellknight Archetype role card, there might be a role card for the [combat] Hellknights and another for the Hellknight Signifers [spellcasters], allowing characters to select the Hellknight role that is appropriate to their background.
I think that most Multiclass Archetype role cards would be a one-size-fits-all approach, though there may be some exceptions. There would probably be room to create more such roles to allow for different varieties further down the road, but my initial efforts will focus on an “iconic” version for now. The prestige classes, meanwhile, might have as much variation as the class requires. I’ve illustrated how there may be multiple such roles for Hellknights; the Low Templar, meanwhile, might need only a single such role card. I don’t plan to tackle those until after the initial batch of Multiclass Archetype role cards are completed, however (even though it’s fairly obvious that I’ve latched onto the Hellknights ;) ).
Anyone who has observed my homegrown PACG rules efforts over the years knows that I’ve rarely been right on target, always relying on input from others to find workable solutions. So I recognize that my ideas might need some tweaking. My intent here is to let you know what I’m thinking on the front end, allowing you to slap me with a dose of sanity before I go too far.
So here’s what I’m thinking so far:
Each Multiclass Archetype role card would grant the appropriate class trait and proficiencies associated with the class. For example, the Fighter Multiclass Archetype role card would grant the Fighter trait and the Weapon and Armor proficiencies.
Each Multiclass Archetype role card would grant the appropriate subskill. In cases where a class might have multiple subskills, these might be presented as feat options, allowing the player to tailor the character a little. For example, using Core Set Merisiel as a guide, a Rogue might choose either the Acrobatics, Disable, or Stealth subskills. One of those would be chosen when the role is chosen while the others might be selected later. Or perhaps, since all of the official Rogue characters appear to have the Disable subskill, that would be the default subskill granted by the multiclass role and other subskills might be available as subsequent feats.
Some method for modifying deck lists would have to be allowed. My thinking at this point is that the role would allow for the favored card of the class (e.g., Weapon for Fighter, Spell for Wizard) would be allowed as a modification the same way that Mummy’s Mask Mavaro may treat any weapons, spells, and armors as items when building his deck. The allowances would vary from class to class. For example, and this is off the top of my head so don’t hold me to it, the hypothetical Fighter Multiclass Archetype might say something like “When building your deck, you may treat any spells, items, and blessings as weapons.” These might even be limited in a way. For example, they might be restricted to #-2 such weapons (or something like that).
The above three elements would be part of the default feat that must be chosen when taking the multiclass role.
Each such role might have +1 or +2 Hand Size power feats, like the Blackjack role.
Other power feats would represent typical feats for the multiclass, most likely drawing upon the corresponding iconic character and the two roles allowed to them, especially if one of those roles is considered more typical than the other.
These roles wouldn’t affect skill dice or skill feats, nor would they affect the cards list or card feats (except in the Mavaro-like manner that I described).
Such characters wouldn’t become as effective as “pure” characters at max progression. For example, Core Set Merisiel won’t be as effective a Rogue if she were to take the Wizard Multiclass Archetype role instead of the Liberator or Waylayer roles, nor will she be as effective a Wizard as Mystic Diviner/Wizened Explorer Ezren.
Why would someone want to do this? Variety is the basic answer. I think the most obvious strategic reason (to me) is to shore up some gap(s) in the party. This would be especially true in cases where either there is duplication (e.g., having Enora and Ezren in the same party) or in smaller parties, especially solo and two-character efforts. In such cases, the gap(s) in capabilities would be covered by multiclass roles. Using the aforementioned Wizard Multiclass Archetype Merisiel, she’ll provide basic Rogue and Wizard capabilities that might be missing if she didn’t take the multiclass role, especially if the party doesn’t have any Arcane spellcasters.
So how might this look? Here are three hypotheticals. Note that I’m developing these on the fly, so I don’t expect these to be “final” by any means. I’ll go with three basic classes: Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard. In all three cases, I’m drawing largely upon the iconic character in the Core Set, but I’m also referring to the previous classic characters of those classes.
Each of these would have something along the lines of the text on the front of the Blackjack card:
POWERS
This role card adds to your existing character card’s skills, cards list, proficiencies, hand size, and powers rather than replacing them. When you gain a power feat, you may choose it from either your character or role card.
Note that I’ve added “skills” due to the addition of the class trait and the subskill(s) and “cards list” due to the modification of the deck building, both as described above.
PROFICIENCIES
Armor Weapon
□ Gain the Fighter trait and the skill Melee: Strength +1 (□+2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-3 (□-2) spells, items, and blessings as weapons.
□ When building your deck, you may treat up to #-3 spells, items, and blessings as armors.
□ Gain the skill Ranged: Dexterity +1.
□ On a local combat check, you may reload or recharge a weapon or an armor to add 1d4 (□ 1d6).
□ You may avenge by discarding a card.
HAND SIZE □ +1
PROFICIENCIES
□ Weapon
□ Gain the Rogue trait and the skill Stealth: Dexterity +1 (□+2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-3 (□-2) spells, armors, and blessings as items.
□ When you encounter a card, if you are the only local character, you may evade it.
□ Gain the skill Disable: Dexterity +1.
□ On your combat check, you may discard a card to add 1d6.
HAND SIZE □ +1 □ +2
PROFICIENCIES
Arcane
□ Gain the Wizard trait and the skill Arcane: Intelligence +1 (□+2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-2 (□-1) weapons, armors, and blessings as spells.
□ At the start of your turn, you may examine the top card of your deck; if it is a spell, you may draw it.
□ On your (□ a local) check against a Magic card, you may recharge a card to add 1d4.
The variation in hand size feats is based on the typical hand size for the multiclass and the likelihood of the character’s base class having a different hand size. Fighters tend to have smaller hand sizes and other classes tend to have larger hand sizes, so a character gaining the Fighter multiclass probably doesn’t need more hand size feats than their normal character card allows. Wizards tend to have larger hand sizes and other classes tend to have smaller hand sizes, so a character gaining the Wizard multiclass might need more hand size feats. Rogues are in the middle, with other classes having more or fewer cards in their hands, so allowing the additional hand size feat to a character gaining the Rogue multiclass seems reasonable.
You'll also note that I went with Stealth instead of Disable for Merisiel, despite what I said earlier. This was because Merisiel's powers reflect being stealthy.
Everything else should be familiar from the Core Set characters. The logic I’ve followed is that those are “iconic” characters, representing the standard version of that class, so their skills, proficiencies, and powers should be suitable for the multiclass versions.
It should be fairly easy to imagine how the multiclass archetype roles for the other classes included in both the Core Set and Curse of the Crimson Throne will look; and classes which appeared in the classic products but which aren’t included in the later products are probably easily imagined, too.
Again, I’m not saying that these are how they should/will be – those simply serve as examples of a starting point. Discussion and feedback will be very helpful in improving these.
I find this very interesting. From Fox of the Asterisk, I'd imagined archetypes from the Advanced Player's Guide, such as Beastmaster, Dragon Disciple, Medic, Pirate, or Shadowdancer. I hadn't even considered multiclass archetypes, but as you have presented them, they look like a great option!
The more the merrier!
My only concern is power creep. I thought Blackjack was a bit overtuned. I would want archetypes to be more about flavor than power level.
Hmm, yeah, these would be great as POD cards, wouldn't they? One card for a whole new way to play any character ^_^. That's a great idea!
I also hadn't particularly thought about multiclass archetypes, but clearly they have potential, as you've shown.
I think the class trait power should not be behind a checkbox, though - it's very weird that you're likely to skip it if you're multiclassing from a similar enough class.
On the other hand, the proficiencies should probably be in the same power checkbox as the card swapping and skill, rather than free on the card.
I also would make the amount you can swap in a static number, rather than #-2 or so. Especially #-3 seems wrong, since if you're gaining a role at level 3 (as is typical) you wouldn't get to add any immediately. Seems much more sensible to have it just be, say, 2 (with a feat to bump it to 4, perhaps).
When building your deck, you may treat up to X spells, items, and blessings as weapons.
(I believe you've got this backwards - you want to be able to treat weapons as spells, items, or blessings, so you can add more weapons to the deck.)
It really is rather limiting having only 8 power feats to work with, though, huh? Not overly limiting, I think, but it is a bit surprising. (For reference, Blackjack had 10—but I think we're all agreed that Blackjack was rather high-powered, to make it feel like a reward, and that we shouldn't try to match it.) These do seem, if anything, slightly underpowered, but I think that's correct for a role that can be applied to any character without restriction.
I think the class trait power should not be behind a checkbox, though - it's very weird that you're likely to skip it if you're multiclassing from a similar enough class.
I’m inclined to agree with you, but I didn’t want to come out the gate with the examples looking overpowered. If we remove that power feat box (which seems likely barring strenuous objections from other players), we would have to add at least one more power feat box somewhere (possibly more if we increase the total number of power feat boxes on each card, as discussed later).
…the proficiencies should probably be in the same power checkbox as the card swapping and skill, rather than free on the card.
That was my original thought, too, until I saw the Blackjack card and figured that the core proficiency(ies) of the multiclass should be automatic, with additional proficiencies possible as power feats. For example, one would not be much of a Fighter without the Weapon proficiency, nor would one be much of a Wizard without the Arcane proficiency. If we remove the power feat box on the trait, skill, and deck building modification, this is probably moot, however.
I also would make the amount you can swap in a static number, rather than #-2 or so. Especially #-3 seems wrong, since if you're gaining a role at level 3 (as is typical) you wouldn't get to add any immediately. Seems much more sensible to have it just be, say, 2 (with a feat to bump it to 4, perhaps).
That’s a fair point. I was basing #-3 on the classic APs giving the role and power feat as a reward at the end of adventure 3 rather than Curse of the Crimson Throne giving it after finishing the first scenario in that adventure. In that, I could see #-2 as the “worst” version, with some being #-1 or # (assuming we preserve the scaling number).
My thought behind the scaling number was that the character would just be starting out in the new class while still advancing in their original class, so the favored card type of the new class might not be as high in quantity as the original class’s favored card type. And since the multiclass archetype roles wouldn’t otherwise allow for modifying the character’s deck list, the scaling would sort of represent that.
Something else to keep in mind is that the character might already have card slots in their deck for the new favored card type, with the multiclass archetype role simply offering a way to get more cards of that type (albeit, at the expense of other card types that might be useful). This isn’t always the case, but in most such instances, the character’s skills probably don’t support them choosing certain classes as a multiclass archetype role anyways. For example, neither Seelah nor Valeros is likely to take the Wizard Multiclass Archetype since they each have an Intelligence of D4, and Kyra isn’t likely to take the Rogue Multiclass Archetype since she has a Dexterity of D4. With a Strength of D12, though, Amiri might take the Fighter Multiclass Archetype, resulting in having favored card types of Melee Weapon (Barbarian) and Weapon (Fighter Multiclass Archetype) and the ability to take even more weapons in her deck from the multiclass. That’s not much of a multiclass change, but it illustrates some interesting possibilities with this idea.
There are arguments for either a higher limit or no limit, however, especially after looking at the characters in the Core Set and the number of their favored card types in their decks. Personally, I think there should be some limit, and I prefer a scaling limit, but that would be something that would need to be discussed and considered/playtested.
(I believe you've got this [the deck building modification] backwards - you want to be able to treat weapons as spells, items, or blessings, so you can add more weapons to the deck.)
You are absolutely correct – I definitely got it backwards. Thanks for catching that mistake.
The template should be:
“When building your deck, you may treat [quantity, whatever we ultimately decide upon] [multiclass favored card type(s)] as [possible replacement card type(s)].”
My only concern is power creep. I thought Blackjack was a bit overtuned. I would want archetypes to be more about flavor than power level.
It really is rather limiting having only 8 power feats to work with, though, huh? Not overly limiting, I think, but it is a bit surprising. (For reference, Blackjack had 10—but I think we’re all agreed that Blackjack was rather high-powered, to make it feel like a reward, and that we shouldn’t try to match it.) These do seem, if anything, slightly underpowered, but I think that’s correct for a role that can be applied to any character without restriction.
I’m not opposed to increasing to 10 feat boxes. My thinking with the original 8 was based on criticisms of Blackjack being too powerful. Realistically, a character is only likely to have up to 4 of the feat boxes [on the multiclass archetype role card] checked at the end of the adventure path. Most of the classic APs allow for 7 total power feats at the completion of the adventure path (Wrath of the Righteous allows 11, but that’s the anomaly), so having more power feat boxes on the multiclass archetype role card will give a little more room for customizing the character throughout the AP. The trick, I think, is ensuring that the multiclass doesn’t necessarily eclipse the base class of the character, but having 6 more power feat boxes (if we increase from 8 to 10) means we’ll have limited options (such as hand size).
So I’ve revised the original three and come up with first drafts of the other classes covered in the Core Set and the Curse of the Crimson Throne adventure path. I’ve gone with 10 power feat boxes this time around, and the initial power isn’t locked behind a feat box. They’re listed in alphabetical order by class name.
HAND SIZE □ +1
PROFICIENCIES
Alchemical
Gain the Alchemist trait and the skill Craft: Intelligence +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-1 (□ -0) Alchemical items as weapons, armors, or blessings.
□ On a local combat check (□ or a local check to defeat an Obstacle or Trap barrier), you may discard a card (□ or recharge an Alchemical card) to add 1d4 (□ 1d6) and the Acid, Fire, or Poison trait.
□ During recovery, when you would banish an Alchemical boon, you may discard it instead. (□ Then you may recharge a new Alchemical item whose level is 0.)
□ On your check that invokes Acid, Fire, or Poison, add 1d6.
HAND SIZE □ +1
PROFICIENCIES
Weapon □ Armor
Gain the Barbarian trait and the skills Melee: Strength +1 (□ +2) Fortitude: Constitution +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-2 (□ -1) Melee weapons as spells, armors, or blessings.
□ On your Strength check or your check against a monster, you may bury a card from your hand (□ or discards) to add your Fortitude skill.
□ Closing your location does not prevent you from exploring (□ and after you close your location, you may draw a card).
□ At the end of your turn, you may move; any local characters may move with you.
HAND SIZE □ +1
PROFICIENCIES
Arcane Divine Instrument
Gain the Bard trait and the skills Arcane: Charisma +1 (□ +2), Diplomacy: Charisma +1 (□ +2), and Divine: Charisma +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-2 (□ -1) spells or allies as weapons or armors.
□ On a local non-combat check (□ or another local character’s combat check), you may recharge a card to add 1d4 (□ 1d6).
□ At the end of your turn, you may discard a card to recharge (□ or to shuffle into your deck) a card from your discards.
HAND SIZE □ +1
PROFICIENCIES
Gain the Brawler trait and the skills Melee: Strength +1 (□ +2), Fortitude: Constitution +1 (□ +2), and Diplomacy: Charisma +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to # allies as weapons, spells, or armors.
□ For your combat check, you may use Melee + 1d8 (□ or Melee + 1d12 and add the Magic trait).
□ On your check against a monster on which you do not play a weapon or a spell, you may recharge an ally to add 1d4 plus that card’s level.
□ When you discard or bury a card as damage, it counts as up to 2 (□ 3) cards.
□ When you defeat a monster, you may heal a card.
(For those not in the know, the Paladin class has been renamed Champion in Pathfinder RPG 2e, so I’m using that class name here.)
HAND SIZE □ +1
PROFICIENCIES
Armor Divine Weapon
Gain the Champion trait and the skills Melee: Strength +1 (□ +2), Divine: Charisma +1 (□ +2), and Diplomacy: Charisma +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-1 (□ -0) weapons or armors as items or allies.
□ When you attempt a check before you act, you may use Divine instead of any listed skill.
□ On a local check, you may discard an armor or the top card of your deck to add 1d4 (□ 1d6) and the Magic trait. (□ If you would discard an armor or a blessing for this power, you may recharge it instead.) (□ You may also do so if you would discard a spell for this power.)
HAND SIZE □ +1
PROFICIENCIES
Armor Divine □ Weapon
Gain the Cleric trait and the skill Divine: Wisdom +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-2 (□ -1) blessings as weapons, items, or allies.
□ On a local check against an Outsider or Undead bane, add 1d4 (□ 1d6) and the Magic trait.
□ At the end of your turn, you may recharge a Divine card to (□ remove a scourge from a local character or) heal a local character a card (□ or 2 cards).
□ Gain the skills Fortitude: Constitution +2 and Perception: Wisdom +2.
HAND SIZE □ +1
PROFICIENCIES
Divine
Gain the Druid trait and the skills Divine: Wisdom +1 (□ +2) and Survival: Wisdom +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-1 (□ -0) spells as weapons, armors, or items.
□ For your combat check, you may bury (□ or discard) a card or recharge an Animal ally to use Survival +1d4 plus the card’s level and add the Animal and Melee traits.
□ When you would recharge an Animal ally for its power (□ or for your character power), you may shuffle it into your deck instead.
□ On a local check that invokes the Animal trait, add 1d4.
□ Gain the skill Perception: Wisdom +2.
HAND SIZE □ +1
PROFICIENCIES
Armor Weapon
Gain the Fighter trait and the skill Melee: Strength +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-2 (□ -1) weapons as spells, items, or blessings.
□ When building your deck, you may treat up to #-2 armors as spells, items, and blessings as armors.
□ On a local combat (□ or your Diplomacy) check, you may reload or recharge a weapon or an armor to add 1d4 (□ 1d6).
□ At the end of your turn, you may recharge a weapon or an armor from your hand or discards.
□ You may avenge by discarding (□ or recharging) a card.
HAND SIZE □ +1
PROFICIENCIES
Gain the Investigator trait and the skills Disable: Intelligence +1 (□ +2), Knowledge: Intelligence +1 (□ +2), and Perception: Wisdom +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-1 (□ -0) items as weapons, spells, and armors.
□ For your check that invokes Finesse, you may recharge (□ or reload) a card to use Knowledge instead of Acrobatics or Stealth, and add the card’s level.
□ On a local check against a barrier, you may bury an item to add your Perception.
□ At the end (□ or start) of your turn, you may examine the top card of your location.
HAND SIZE □ +1
Gain the Monk trait and the skills Melee: Strength +1 (□ +2) and Acrobatics: Dexterity +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to # blessings as spells or armors.
□ Gain the skill Perception: Wisdom +1.
□ For your combat check, you may recharge a card to use Acrobatics or Melee + 1d6 (□ 1d10 and add the Magic trait) plus the card’s level and add the Bludgeoning and Melee traits.
□ On your combat or Acrobatics check, you may freely play 1 blessing (□ or 2 blessings).
□ When you play a blessing on your check, you may recharge it instead of discarding it.
□ When you suffer Combat damage, reduce it by 1.
HAND SIZE □ +1
PROFICIENCIES
Weapon
Gain the Ranger trait and the skills Ranged: Dexterity +1 (□ +2) and Survival: Constitution +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-1 (□ -0) weapons as spells, armors, or blessings.
□ On any combat check, you may recharge a card or reload a weapon to add 1d4 (□ 1d6).
□ Gain the skill Survival: Wisdom +2.
□ On your check that invokes the Axe or Bow trait, add 1d6 (□ 1d8); against a Giant monster, add another 1d4.
□ At the end of your turn, you may examine the top card of your location.
HAND SIZE □ +1
PROFICIENCIES
□ Weapon
Gain the Rogue trait and the skill Stealth: Dexterity +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-1 items or knife weapons as spells, armors, or blessings.
□ Gain the skill Disable: Dexterity +2.
□ When you would recharge or discard a Knife weapon for its power, you may reload it instead.
□ When you encounter a card, if you are the only local character (□ or it is not your turn), you may evade it.
□ On your combat check (□ or on a local check to acquire), you may discard (□ or recharge) a card to add 1d6.
HAND SIZE □ +1
PROFICIENCIES
Arcane Divine Instrument Weapon
Gain the Skald trait and the skills Melee: Strength +1 (□ +2) and Diplomacy: Charisma +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-1 (□ -0) weapons as armors, items, or blessings.
□ At the start of your turn, you may exchange a card with a card of the same type (□ or a weapon or an Instrument card) from your discards.
□ On a local Strength check (□ or a local check against a monster), you may bury a card from your hand (□ or discards) to add your Diplomacy.
□ At the end of your turn, you may move; any local characters may move with you.
HAND SIZE □ +1
PROFICIENCIES
Arcane
Gain the Sorcerer trait and the skill Arcane: Charisma +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to # (□ +1)( □ +2) spells as weapons, armor, or blessings.
□ For your combat check, you may discard a card (□ or recharge a spell) to use Arcane + 2d4 (□ 2d6) plus the card’s level and add the Attack, Force, and Magic traits. This counts as playing an Arcane spell.
□ On your check to recharge an Arcane spell (□ or an Arcane item), you automatically succeed. (□ You may instead shuffle it into your deck.)
HAND SIZE □ +1 □ +2
PROFICIENCIES
Arcane
Gain the Wizard trait and the skill Arcane: Intelligence +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-1 (□ -0) spells as weapons, armors, or blessings.
□ At the start of your turn, you may examine the top card of your deck; if it is a spell, you may draw it. (□ Then you may recharge the top card of your deck.)
□ On your turn, you may recharge a spell to examine the top card of your location. If you do, you may discard (□ or recharge) a card to explore.
□ On a local check against a Magic card, you may recharge a card to add 1d4 (□ 1d6).
D'oh! The Ranger Multiclass Archetype's first power should read:
Gain the Ranger trait and the skills Ranged: Dexterity +1 (□ +2) and Fortitude: Constitution +1 (□ +2). When building your deck, you may treat up to #-1 (□ -0) weapons as spells, armors, or blessings.
I forgot to change Survival to Fortitude.
Most of the drafts in my previous post are fairly straightforward adaptations of the base skills and powers of each of the iconic characters in the Core Set and the Curse of the Crimson Throne adventure path. My basic methodology was:
In most cases, only one HAND SIZE feat was included. The Wizard was the only exception, and I guess that was because I had one spare feat box after working everything else out.
All of the character’s base proficiencies were included, and those that were locked behind feat boxes (e.g., the Barbarian Amiri having □ Armor) were similarly locked on the multiclass archetype role.
The class name was included as a trait. My theory here is that the class trait is one of the criteria for determining which class decks the character can use [in Guild play]. I don’t recall off the top of my head, but there may also be cards that have effects based on class traits. Even if there aren’t, this builds in forward compatibility.
The core skill of the class was included. There may be one or two additional skills, and when I had to choose, I chose based on the skill(s) that were necessary to other powers or which seemed the most thematic to the class and ignored those which seemed based on the character. For example, the Fighter Multiclass Archetype doesn’t include the Diplomacy: Charisma skill even though it is on Valeros’ sheet since that seems like a Valeros thing and not a Fighter thing. Meanwhile, the Investigator Multiclass Archetype only includes Disable: Intelligence, Knowledge: Intelligence, and Perception: Wisdom, ignoring Diplomacy: Charisma. In some cases, the ignored skills are available later as power feats.
The deck modification allows the character to include the favored card type of the new class, counting cards of that type as other cards in the character’s deck list. In doing this, I assumed that the character might have 0 such cards on their deck list (e.g., Valeros has 0 spells and does not have card feat options to include them, so if he were to take a spellcasting multiclass, he needs to be able to replace other cards in his deck list with a reasonable number of spells). In determining the cards that could be replaced, I generally looked at the deck list of the character that represents the multiclass (e.g., Ezren for the Wizard Multiclass Archetype) and use the three card types with the lowest starting number. Ezren starts with 1 weapon, 0 armors, and 0 blessings, so those are the card types that a character taking the Wizard Multiclass Archetype may use for spells. In cases where the multiclass has multiple favored card types, there were only two card types (i.e., Bard, Champion/Paladin) that they can replace. The Monk, too, may only replace two card types, largely because most characters can take some number of blessings and I didn’t think it would be smart to give the character too many. In some cases, a specific trait was identified on the iconic character (e.g., Melee Weapon for the Barbarian Amiri). I preserved most of those, except for the Fighter Valeros, whose favored card was a Sword Weapon. Again, that seems more of a Valeros thing and not necessarily a Fighter thing, so modifying that to just Weapon allows players to customize their characters a bit more.
I’ve started with the scaling # as the basis for the number of new favored cards the character may take, and that might be modified based on the number of such cards that the iconic character starts with.
For the most part, these were lifted straight from the character’s base powers, though each was locked behind a power feat box even when most were not on the iconic character sheet. The idea here is that the player chooses one such power feat when taking the multiclass archetype role, selecting subsequent power feats throughout the rest of the adventure path. This is one part of the effort to prevent these roles from overpowered.
There were a few cases where the initial efforts didn’t yield 10 power feat boxes. The first steps in those cases were to see if there were skills that were ignored in the baseline power of the multiclass archetype role, and if any of those seemed appropriate to the class, allow them as power feats. If there were none of those, or if there were still power feat boxes remaining, the next step was to look at the iconic character’s roles and see if there were power feats that were common to both roles. On at least one occasion there was. On other occasions, there were some similar, but not identical, power feats. In those instances, I chose the power feat that seemed to be either the least powerful (e.g., the Cleric Multiclass Archetype’s healing power improving from 1 card to □ 2 cards instead of □ 1d4 cards) or I found some sort of compromise (e.g., the Cleric Multiclass Archetype includes a power feat to remove a scourge from a local character in the healing power, though that only appears in one of Kyra’s roles).
I think the first thing that needs to be discussed is the skills. Each of those eats up a power feat because I’ve started each at +1 with a power feat to improve that to +2. In many cases, using those power feats meant that some of the iconic character’s power feats aren’t included on the role card. I wonder if simply putting them at +2 without the power feat would free up potential power feats that could be used elsewhere, including the possibility of including power feats that I had to omit or which aren’t on the iconic character’s sheet but which might allow for more customization of the character to represent broader views of the class. In addition, I’m wondering if we should allow up to three skills among those that are automatically gained when taking the multiclass. Most of the classes allow for two, but there are a few that have three. Since most of the iconic characters have three or more skills, and most (but not all) of these seem to be representative of the character, this might simplify things. An alternative might be to include any skill that the character has at +2 or which seems essential to the class as one which is automatically gained when the multiclass archetype role is selected, with others available as a power feat. For example, the Fighter class in the PFRPG 2e allows for Fighters to be archers, which would require the Ranged skill (arguments could be made for tying it to either Strength, is WotR Imrijka, or Dexterity, as RotR Harsk) as a power feat. In many cases, I adjusted the power feat skills to start at +2, and that should probably be standardized across all the multiclass archetypes, or, if we go with the second option I described for the skills, start those at +1 with a +2 power feat.
There were some exceptions to things, and these really need to be discussed, too.
The main thing here was the omission of Attack spells and the Arcane: Intelligence skill. This includes leaving Attack spells out of the favored cards (i.e., the types with which you can replace other cards in the character’s deck list), the Arcane skill, and the Attack boons in two of the powers. I was worried that leaving these in might make a character too powerful if the original class had Arcane spells, and I figured there are enough Alchemical items in the various APs and character decks to give a Alchemist multiclass character sufficient quantities of the cards to be effective. I don’t know if this assumption is correct, though, and it bears examination.
I made her Divine: Charisma skill +1 instead of +0. The previous Paladins (RotR Seelah, WotR Seelah, and CD Koren, Raz, and Seelah) all had Divine skills starting at +1 or more. My interpretation of Core Set Seelah’s Divine skill being Diplomacy +0 is that she’s intended to have more limited use of Divine spells, most likely having to discard them after playing them. It also allows her to roll 1d8 instead of 1d4 for any skill she doesn’t have (when attempting a check before acting). I’ll have to examine the PFRPG 2e Champion a bit more to try to figure out the intent with regard to the class’s Divine spellcasting abilities. If it is intended to be lower, this might be an exception to the +2 for starting skills (assuming we change to that).
I made the favored card type spells instead of Animal allies. I think this was an oversight on my part – I didn’t really look at Lini’s favored card and mentally assumed that she would favor spells since she’s a Divine spellcaster. I think I should change this to Animal allies or Divine spells, with the starting number adjusted from #-1 to #. In this way, a non-Divine spellcasting (e.g., a Fighter or a Rogue) character might take the Druid Multiclass Archetype and gain the ability to keep and use Divine spells.
I had to leave one of the class’s base power feats off (shuffling the location after examining it at the end of the turn). This could be included if we make Survival one of the skills that is automatically gained when taking the multiclass. And if we also get rid of the +2 power feats for the skills, there would also be room for a power feat to gain the Perception skill (or make Perception an automatic skill and push Fortitude to the power feat).
One thing that I considered and experimented with, but which I dropped, was a power feat allowing the character to improve the skill die of the new class’s core skill by one level, up to a maximum of d10. The concept here was that it might give players a bit of flexibility. For example, if Valeros were to take the Wizard Multiclass Archetype role, he would be extremely limited in his effectiveness as a Wizard due to his Intelligence of d4. By allowing him to improve that to d6, he would become a little better (but he’d still be a chump Wizard a la Flenta). Limiting the improvement to a d10 prevents the character from becoming overpowered. It’s kind of a radical idea, so I wasn’t sure how it would be received. When a few of the roles couldn’t incorporate that power feat without sacrificing other powers, I decided to drop it en toto. If the revisions to the skills allow, I may try this out in the next version.
I’ll begin working on the revisions, but I’ll hold off on posting them pending feedback.
I also plan to look at the other classes for which there were classic characters but which weren’t covered in the Core Set or Curse of the Crimson Throne and which haven’t been dropped/relegated to sub-classes in PRFPG 2e. So I’m looking at the Gunslinger, Kineticist, Magus, Medium, Oracle, Psychic, Summoner, Witch, and Swashbuckler. Those won’t be posted until after the next draft of the core classes. Some of those will be interesting
Unfortunately, other classic character classes either haven’t been covered yet in PFRPG 2e (e.g., Hunter, Mesmerist, and Spy (Arueshalae)); have been replaced by other classes that haven’t been covered in PACG (e.g., the Medium has been replaced by the Animist and the Occultist has been replaced by the Thaumaturge); or has become a subclass/class archetype of another class or a core archetype (e.g., the Antipaladin has been absorbed into the Champion, the Assassin is now a core archetype, the Cavalier is now a core archetype, the Inquisitor has become the Vindicator archetype of the Ranger, the Spiritualist is now a type of Summoner, the Warpriest is a sub-class of the Cleric. The class archetypes are not part of this project and will probably be best covered as distinct characters (perhaps revisions or alternatives to the original class deck characters in the hypothetical remasters), with the character having that class archetype at the base level or as one of its roles (and the other role possibly being an alternative class archetype). The core archetypes, meanwhile, are not part of this project (yet?), though they might bear some similarities to the multiclass archetype roles.
Brother Tyler, the time and effort on these is commendable! You are a boon to this game we love. Unfortunately, my life is a bit busy now, making it difficult for me to parse everything you've been sharing, but I'll add some thoughts.
You propose multiclass archetypes as roles as an alternative to a character's own role cards. I'm unsure how I feel about this. Role cards are often when class powers take off. Taking only a couple feats on one's basic character card (which usually only offers a couple of real powers, along with a proficiency feat and/or a hand size feat or two) then most likely taking 4 (or 5 if bonus power feats) in a different class seems odd. It makes the original class seem more like the "dip".
I imagined multiclassing more the way the RPG handled it in 2E (not Remastered, which may or may not have changed; I have no idea). You don't sacrifice your own feat progression options, you only open new options. I would like to be able to dip into a multiclass without sacrificing my own role. Maybe be able to get that Bardic performance or get a little healing power as a 2-level dip, but still get a couple of my own progressive feats.
(I liked what 2E did to tone down multiclassing so that you'd no longer see level 1 Fighter/level 1 Swashbuckler/level 1 Dragon Disciple/level 1 Champion/level 1 Zen Archer/level 1 et cetera. The first feat gives you the basics, but the real power comes when you take the second feat.)
If I were designing these (which I admittedly don't have time for right now), I'd have them as optional at any level from 3 and up. They would be in addition to one's own role card (I don't feel beholden to the Blackjack template because I was never a fan), and a character can only take one additional archetype, whether multiclass or otherwise. (I also want to see non-multiclass archetypes, perhaps even more than MC archetypes.) Taking the archetype would be a power feat itself, and it would give the basics, such as traits, proficiencies, deck-building substitutions, and probably a skill feat*. There would be no need for 8 or 10 check boxes (though there could be), since one still has one's own role card. The "iconic" powers would be the actual check boxes on the cards.
It would be interesting to see how each version would fare under playtesting. Would multiclass characters under either system seem too strong? Too weak?
*Honestly, proficiencies, deck-building substitutions, and skill feats each represent power feat options for other characters, and I'm unsure how powerful it is to give them for free.
... so I didn't make this very clear, but I only meant that the class trait itself should be granted without a power checkbox, not the whole power you had packaged with it. I think your initial assessment was right, that it's a bit much to give for free.
I'm also... a little iffy on these roles having all of the iconic characters' powers, especially for classes where we have examples showing these to be particularly traits of the iconics. But that's mostly a result of having 10 powers, I think. 8 is limited but I think that might be in a good way?
@Whipstitch, I do expect that being able to have a multiclass/archetype role in addition to a standard character role would be a bit OP. (Not to mention, there'd need to be new rules about having multiple roles.) However, I do recognize the concern about making the archetype roles too useless/uninteresting to replace a normal role. Unfortunately, I don't think there's much to do about that beyond careful balancing.
Anyway, I'm going to lay out here how I was thinking the Fighter archetype might go, as an example.
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Fighter trait.
Hand Size □ +1
Powers
You gain the Fighter trait.
□ Gain the skill Melee: Strength +2. You are proficient with Melee. When rebuilding, you may treat up to 2 (□ 4) weapons as spells, items, or blessings.
□ Gain the skill Ranged: Dexterity +1. You are proficient with Ranged.
□ You are proficient with armor. When rebuilding, you may treat up to 2 armors as spells, items, or allies.
□ At the end of your turn, you may recharge a weapon or armor from your hand or discards.
□ On a local combat check, you may recharge a weapon or an armor to add 1d6.
□ You may avenge by discarding a card.
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That's with 8 powers; if I was to add two more, one would be (□ or reload) on the combat-boost power. The other... maybe (□ Gain the skill Fortitude: Constitution +2) behind the armor power? I don't think it needs those powers—in fact I somewhat prefer it not having them—but they would make it more appealing.
This maybe isn't the best example, since I did end up including all of Valeros's base powers, but I still omitted some things that felt more unique, such as the combat power boosting Diplomacy.
Whipstitch has described one of the concerns I was alluding to in one of my previous posts: switching to these multiclass archetype roles, as written, means that the original class powers are effectively limited to the base powers. Most of the Core/Curse characters have one power feat for a Hand Size increase and three power feats for Power improvements. Two of the characters, Amiri and Kyra have only two Power improvements since one power feat is for a Proficiency. Since characters are generally limited to 6 total power feats throughout an adventure path, and since most players will choose at least one Hand Size increase, a multiclass character can be fairly evenly split in terms of how they assign their power feats to Powers for each of their classes, with each having either 2 or 3 power feats assigned. As previously presented, the multiclass archetype roles might allow a player to focus their power feat progression in the multiclass rather than in the original class, and that seems counterintuitive given the likelihood that their skills will be optimized for the original class. There are likely some combinations of classes, however, where the character’s skill might do a decent job of supporting [some of] the powers of the multiclass. For example, Valeros might take the Sorcerer Multiclass Archetype role, gaining much more potent Arcane skill via his higher Charisma than if he had chosen the Wizard Multiclass Archetype role, which would rely on his low Intelligence. And the Bard Multiclass Archetype is also a great fit for Valeros as both Arcane and Divine are tied to Charisma. Valeros wouldn’t gain quite as much from the Barbarian or Cleric Multiclass Archetype roles, though there would still be ways for them to help.
The versions I’ve presented previously provide a large power jump when the multiclass archetype role is taken due to the skills and proficiencies, but the combination of the “capping” of the original class powers and the locking of every power allowed by the multiclass behind a power feat box means that the power progression will taper off. The character’s capabilities become broader in that their skills and proficiencies will likely increase and they’ll have access to new powers that they wouldn’t otherwise have, but the overall potency is less than the more focused potency possible if the character were to use one of their roles. Overall, just as with the Blackjack role, the multiclass archetypes necessarily limit the progression in the original class power progression, but the higher number of options allows for interesting tailoring to the needs of the party/adventure path.
The concept of using a multiclass archetype role in addition to a regular role is intriguing. If that were to be done, the initial multiclass progression would have to be severely downgraded from what I’ve presented previously. Fortunately…
foxoftheasterisk has provided an alternative to the ideas that I’ve presented, and I think that alternative has a lot of potential. It fixes some things that were bugging me about my previous ideas, and I think it allows for a little bit more tailoring of characters (I’ll describe that in more detail when I preset my revised ideas).
I had developed another round of drafts, but after seeing foxoftheasterisk’s idea, I’m revising my ideas. I’ll present them here once I get them all done.
There are two key points at which players make important choices regarding their characters. The first is when characters are selected (normally before starting the adventure path, but potentially later as dead characters are replaced or new characters are added to the party) and the second is when roles are selected. These choices affect potential overall party capabilities, and they also have an opportunity cost in terms of the characters and roles that aren’t selected. The current concept with the multiclass archetype roles is that the multiclass archetype role (a) is chosen instead of the normal roles available to characters, and (b) necessarily limits the potential progression in the character’s original class. I’ve mentally identified this model as Model 1.
The impact of (b) shouldn’t be understated and has proposed a possible solution. I’m working on my own solution, which is a variation on ’s proposed solution and which I’ll present in a subsequent reply. Since both solutions build on what we’re doing here with Model 1, though, I’m going to focus on that model for now.
I really like where went with Model 1. I think it is a definite improvement over my original idea. I’ve made a few tweaks in developing the concept and extending it to all of the Core/Curse characters. First, I moved the statement about gaining the Class trait to the initial instruction. That was mostly to see how it would look. I could definitely see the argument for leaving it in the Powers section as showed. Second, I used the scaling # for the card types, though there were a few for which I used fixed numbers. I think both options need to be considered/playtested. Third, I included 10 feat boxes. I see this as a way to give players more flexibility in tailoring their character to the overall needs of the group.
My general trend was to tie skills and proficiencies with the corresponding deck modifications -or- other powers. In such cases, only one skill and one proficiency was gained, the lone exception (I think) being the Bard since Arcane and Divine are tied at the hip. If a proficiency and deck modification weren’t granted with the skill, there might be either a second skill or another power.
So you’ll see three basic patterns:
□ Gain the skill <Skill: Skill>. You are proficient with <Proficiency>. <Power>. <Rebuilding modification power>.
In general, these are limited to one skill and one proficiency. The only exception I recall is for the Bard because all members of that class have both the Arcane and Divine skills/proficiencies so it seemed appropriate to tie them to a single power.
Most of these don’t include a power, but when they do, it is because the power is tied to the skill/proficiency. The first example of this (with a power) is the Alchemist.
There are a few times where the character only gains the skill -or- proficiency and the rebuilding modification, such as the Barbarian with armor.
□ Gain the skills <Skill> and <Skill>.
The only times a power feat only grants a single skill is when I couldn’t tie the skill to a power. Some discussion about the powers might determine that some of these need to change, tying the skill to a power.
□ <Power>.
If I remember correctly, none of the powers has more than three feat boxes, including the initial feat box. Having four feat boxes would make the character a one-trick pony (okay, two or three tricks depending on their original class powers). Where possible, feat boxes have been limited to one or two per power, and I’ve tried to avoid sequential feat boxes so that players have more agency in tailoring the character. This wasn’t always possible, however, where the iconic character’s base powers had the sequential feat boxes. There may be a few instances where the deck modifications have sequential feat boxes that allow the player to modify the number of the new favored boon in their deck, and these probably need to be examined to see if there are alternatives.
I see this multiclass archetype role concept as a way to sub-optimize in terms of individual power for the sake of improving the party’s overall capabilities (i.e., filling certain gaps, mostly in terms of skills). There are a few very interesting combinations that I can see, however, and that’s just with the characters with which I am familiar. There may be (many?) more interesting combinations with classes with which I am less familiar. Taking the Cleric Multiclass Archetype, for example, allows for any character to become a healer. Most characters might benefit from the Rogue’s power feat to add 1d6 to their combat check. And that’s just the Core characters – the possibilities increase considerably when you consider the swath of classic characters.
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Alchemist trait. You gain the Alchemist trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ On a local combat check (□ or a local check to defeat an Obstacle or Trap barrier), you may discard a card (□ or recharge an Alchemical or Attack card) to add 1d4 and the Acid, Fire, or Poison trait.
□ Gain the skill Craft: Intelligence +2. You are proficient with Alchemical. During recovery, when you would banish an Alchemical boon or an Arcane Attack spell, you may discard it instead. (□ Then you may recharge a new Alchemical item whose level is 0.) When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 (□ #) Alchemical items as weapons, armors, or allies.
□ Gain the skill Arcane: Intelligence +1. You are proficient with Arcane. When rebuilding, you may treat up to 2 Attack spells as weapons, armors, or allies.
□ Gain the skills Disable: Dexterity +1 and Ranged: Dexterity +1.
□ On your check that invokes Acid, Fire, or Poison, add 1d6.
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Barbarian trait. You gain the Barbarian trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skill Melee: Strength +2. You are proficient with Weapon. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 (□ #) Melee weapons as spells, armors, or blessings.
□ You are proficient with Armor. When rebuilding, you may treat up to 2 armors as spells, items, or allies.
□ Gain the skill Fortitude: Constitution +1. On your Strength check or your check against a monster, you may bury a card from your hand (□ or discards) to add your Fortitude skill.
□ Closing your location does not prevent you from exploring (□ and after you close your location, you may draw a card)(□ and you may heal a weapon).
□ Gain the skill Survival: Wisdom +2. At the end of your turn, you may move; any local characters may move with you.
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Bard trait. You gain the Bard trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skills Arcane: Charisma +1 and Divine: Charisma +1. You are proficient with Arcane and Divine. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-2 (□ #-1)( □ #) spells as weapons or armors.
□ Gain the skill Knowledge: Intelligence +2. You are proficient with Instrument. On a local non-combat check (□ or another local character’s combat check), you may recharge a card to add 1d4 (□ 1d6).
□ Gain the skill Acrobatics: Dexterity +1. At the end of your turn, you may discard a card to recharge (□ or to shuffle into your deck) a card from your discards.
□ Gain the skill Diplomacy: Charisma +2. When rebuilding, you may treat up to # allies as weapons or armors.
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Brawler trait. You gain the Brawler trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skill Melee: Strength +2. For your combat check, you may use Melee + 1d8 (□ or Melee + 1d12 and add the Magic trait).
□ On your check against a monster on which you do not play a weapon or a spell, you may recharge an ally to add 1d4 plus that card’s level.
□ Gain the skill Diplomacy: Charisma +1. When rebuilding, you may treat up to # allies as weapons, spells, or armors.
□ Gain the skill Fortitude: Constitution +1. When you discard or bury a card as damage, it counts as up to 2 (□ 3) cards.
□ When you defeat a monster, you may heal a card (□ or an ally).
□ Gain the skill Acrobatics: Dexterity +1.
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Champion trait. You gain the Champion trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skill Melee: Strength +2. You are proficient with Weapon. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 (□ #) weapons as items or allies.
□ Gain the skill Divine: Charisma +1 (□ +2). When you attempt a check before you act, you may use Divine instead of any listed skill.
□ You are proficient with Armor. On a local check, you may discard an armor or the top card of your deck to add 1d4 (□ 1d6) and the Magic trait. (□ If you would discard an armor or a blessing for this power, you may recharge it instead.) (□ You may also do so if you would discard a spell for this power.) When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 armors as items or allies.
□ Gain the skills Diplomacy: Charisma +2 and Fortitude: Constitution +1.
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Cleric trait. You gain the Cleric trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skills Melee: Strength +2 and Diplomacy: Charisma +1. You are proficient with Armor (□ and Weapon). When rebuilding, you may treat up to 2 armors as weapons, items, or allies.
□ Gain the skill Divine: Wisdom +2. You are proficient with Divine. When rebuilding, you may treat up to # Divine spells as weapons, armors, or allies.
□ On a local check against an Outsider or Undead bane, add 1d4 (□ 1d6) and the Magic trait.
□ At the end of your turn, you may recharge a Divine card to (□ remove a scourge from a local character or) heal a local character a card (□ or 2 cards).
□ Gain the skills Fortitude: Constitution +2 and Perception: Wisdom +2.
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Druid trait. You gain the Druid trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skills Perception: Wisdom +2 and Survival: Wisdom +2. When rebuilding, you may treat up to # Animal allies and spells as weapons, armors, or items.
□ Gain the skill Divine: Wisdom +1. You are proficient with Divine. When rebuilding, you may treat up to # spells as weapons, armors, or items.
□ For your combat check, you may bury (□ or discard) a card or recharge an Animal ally to use Survival +1d4 plus the card’s level and add the Animal and Melee traits.
□ When you would recharge an Animal ally for its power (□ or for your character power), you may shuffle it into your deck instead.
□ On a local check (□ at a Wild location or) that invokes the Animal trait, add 1d4 (□ 1d6).
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Fighter trait. You gain the Fighter trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skill Melee: Strength +2. You are proficient with Weapon. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 Melee weapons as spells, items, or blessings.
□ Gain the skill Ranged: Dexterity +2. You are proficient with Weapon. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 Ranged weapons as spells, items, or blessings.
□ You are proficient with Armor. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-2 armors as spells, items, or allies.
□ On a local combat (□ or your Diplomacy) check, you may reload or recharge a weapon or an armor to add 1d4 (□ 1d6).
□ At the end of your turn, you may recharge a weapon or an armor from your hand or discards.
□ You may avenge by discarding (□ or recharging) a card.
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Investigator trait. You gain the Investigator trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skills Diplomacy: Charisma +2 and Disable: Intelligence +1. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 (□ #)(□ #+1) items as weapons, spells, and armors.
□ Gain the skill Knowledge: Intelligence +2. For your check that invokes Finesse, you may recharge (□ or reload) a card to use Knowledge instead of Acrobatics or Stealth, and add the card’s level.
□ Gain the skill Perception: Wisdom +2. On a local check against a barrier, you may bury an item to add your Perception.
□ At the end (□ or start) of your turn, you may examine the top card of your location.
□ You are proficient with Alchemical. On your check to recharge an Alchemical item whose level is lower than #, you automatically succeed.
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Monk trait. You gain the Monk trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skills Melee: Strength +1 and Acrobatics: Dexterity +2.
□ For your combat check, you may recharge a card to use Acrobatics or Melee + 1d6 (□ 1d10 and add the Magic trait) plus the card’s level and add the Bludgeoning and Melee traits.
□ On your combat or Acrobatics check, you may freely play 1 blessing (□ or 2 blessings).
□ When you play a blessing on your check, you may recharge it instead of discarding it. When rebuilding, you may treat up to # blessings as weapons, spells, or armors.
□ Gain the skill Fortitude: Constitution +2. When you suffer Combat (□ or any) damage, reduce it by 1.
□ Gain the skill Perception: Wisdom +1.
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Ranger trait. You gain the Ranger trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skills Fortitude: Constitution +1 and Survival: Constitution +2.
□ On any combat check, you may recharge a card or reload a weapon to add 1d4 (□ 1d6).
□ Gain the skill Ranged: Dexterity +2. You are proficient with Weapon. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 (□ #) weapons as spells, armors, or blessings.
□ On your check that invokes the Axe or Bow trait, add 1d6 (□ 1d8); against a Giant monster, add another 1d4.
□ Gain the skill Perception: Wisdom +2. At the end of your turn, you may examine the top card of your location. (□ Then, you may shuffle your location.)
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Rogue trait. You gain the Rogue trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skills Disable: Dexterity +2 and Stealth: Dexterity +2. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 (□ #) items as spells, armors, or blessings.
□ Gain the skill Acrobatics: Dexterity +2. When you encounter a card, if you are the only local character (□ or it is not your turn), you may evade it.
□ You are proficient with Weapon. When you would recharge or discard a Knife weapon for its power, you may reload it instead. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 Knife weapons as spells, armors, or blessings.
□ On your combat check (□ or on a local check to acquire), you may discard (□ or recharge) a card to add 1d6.
□ When you encounter a bane, you may recharge a card to ignore a bane’s before acting powers.
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Skald trait. You gain the Skald trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skill Knowledge: Charisma +1. You are proficient with Arcane and Divine. When rebuilding, you may treat up to # spells as armors, items, or blessings.
□ Gain the skill Melee: Strength +2. You are proficient with Weapon. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 (□ #) weapons as armors, items, or blessings.
□ You are proficient with Instrument. At the start of your turn, you may exchange a card with a card of the same type (□ or a weapon or an Instrument card) from your discards.
□ Gain the skill Diplomacy: Charisma +1. On a local Strength check (□ or a local check against a monster), you may bury a card from your hand (□ or discards) to add your Diplomacy.
□ At the end of your turn, you may move; any local characters may move with you.
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Sorcerer trait. You gain the Sorcerer trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skill Arcane: Charisma +2. You are proficient with Arcane. When rebuilding, you may treat up to # (□ #+1) spells as weapons, armor, or blessings.
□ Gain the skills Diplomacy: Charisma +2 and Knowledge: Intelligence +1.
□ For your combat check, you may discard a card (□ or recharge a spell) to use Arcane + 2d4 (□ 2d6) plus the card’s level and add the Attack, Force, and Magic traits. This counts as playing an Arcane spell.
□ On your check to recharge an Arcane spell (□ or an Arcane item), you automatically succeed. (□ You may instead shuffle it into your deck.)
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in place of one of your character's roles if you do not have the Wizard trait. You gain the Wizard trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skill Arcane: Intelligence +2. You are proficient with Arcane. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 (□ #) spells as weapons, armors, or blessings.
□ Gain the skills Craft: Intelligence +1 and Knowledge: Intelligence +2.
□ At the start of your turn, you may examine the top card of your deck; if it is a spell, you may draw it. (□ Then you may recharge the top card of your deck.)
□ On your turn, you may recharge a spell to examine the top card of your location. If you do, you may discard (□ or recharge) a card to explore.
□ On a local check against a Magic card, you may recharge a card to add 1d4 (□ 1d6).
The million dollar question concerns whether or not a multiclass character (whatever the multiclass archetype role cards end up as) is as potent as a character who uses a normal role card. This can be difficult to determine since there are three basic combinations of power feats:
2 base class power feats and 4 multiclass power feats
3 base class power feats and 3 multiclass power feats
4 base class power feats and 2 multiclass power feats
(I'm not including bonus power feats or end of adventure path power feats in these combinations.)
And that is complicated by the fact that each character has one HAND SIZE power feat in the base class and another in the multiclass.
And the combinations might vary if Model 2 (something to offset the weakness of capping multiclass characters to their base class powers) offers more power feats in their base class.
has pointed out something that is very important and which reveals a significant flaw in my plan. The combinations for six power feats are based solely on the concepts of Core/Curse, where characters earn two power feats prior to the role card being awarded and will normally earn a total of 6 power feats through an adventure path.
The classic adventure paths work differently. In each of those, characters earn three power feats before being awarded a role. In three of the adventure paths (Rise of the Runelords, Skull & Shackles, and Mummy's Mask), characters earn a total of seven power feats. In Wrath of the Righteous, meanwhile, characters can earn 10 or more power feats (depending on the outcome of the Threshold of the End scenario in adventure 6) - I'm going with 11 just for the sake of simplicity.
So the combinations for most of the classic APs are:
3 base class and 4 multiclass
4 base class and 3 multiclass
5 base class and 2 multiclass
6 base class and 1 multiclass
And the combinations for Wrath are:
3 base class and 8 multiclass
4 base class and 7 multiclass
5 base class and 6 multiclass
6 base class and 5 multiclass
7 base class and 4 multiclass
8 base class and 3 multiclass
9 base class and 2 multiclass
10 base class and 1 multiclass
I've deliberately omitted the combination where all power feats are taken in the base class, and I've ignored the Guild adventure paths.
I was only looking at Core/Curse and the future (which is almost certainly a pipe dream) rather than considering all of the existing products. That was a mistake.
The current plan of limiting multiclass characters to the four power feats on the base character card doesn't seem quite right. suggested allowing multiclass characters to use one of their normal roles and their multiclass archetype role. The problem I have with that is that it gives such characters more options than single class characters without really having a cost, aside from the opportunity cost of which feats they choose and which they don't. I was working on an alternative, creating a multiclass role card for each character, but each of those was limited to five power feats and that doesn't really give players the flexibility they deserve. I think that 's idea is much more elegant and might be modified by setting a limit on the number of power feats that the player might check on the normal role card, forcing progression in both classes and imposing some level of cost.
The only number that really works for such a limit is five [on the normal role card]. With Core/Cure, characters will then have two to five power feats on the normal role card and the rest (out of six) on the multiclass archetype role card. With most of the classic APs, characters will have three to five power feats on the normal role card and the rest (out of seven) on the multiclass archetype role card. With Wrath, characters will have three to five power feats on the normal role card and the rest (out of 10+) on the multiclass archetype role card.
The limitation would be implemented via a modification to wording on the multiclass archetype role card, something like:
When you would gain a role card, you may use this card in addition if do not have the [class] trait. A character may have no more than one multiclass archetype role card. You may check no more than five power feat boxes on your normal role card and all other power feats must be selected on this multiclass archetype role card. You gain the [class] trait.
I do not think of it as a significant flaw, Brother Tyler. There's always going to be a difference between all the classic APs (and Seasons) and Core+ APs. It might need to be taken into consideration, but it's better not to limit yourself by it.
I would say it’s significant because the power progression possible on the base character card is very limited, especially for those like Core Amiri and CD Cogsnap, who have two power feats in Hand Size and Proficiencies/Proficient With (i.e., only two actual power feats in Powers). Combine that with the fact that the multiclass archetype roles I’ve posited effectively break all of a base character class’s Powers into individual power feats. So instead of getting all of Core Amiri’s base barbarian Powers upon multiclassing as a barbarian, a character instead must “pay” for each power, or an advancement, via a power feat. Multiclass characters will have breadth of powers, but not necessarily depth (i.e., jacks of all trades, masters of none). That will prevent many players from even trying this option. By allowing the player to choose power feats in one of the original class’s roles, but forcing them to choose some power feats in their multiclass role, they have more agency to make the character effective while accepting some level of sub-optimization. When choosing their role(s), they’ll already have three power feats (legacy adventure paths) or two power feats (Core/Curse) in the base character powers, so being able to choose more from the base class role card will give them some options while still forcing them to progress in their multiclass via power feats. In most (non-Wrath) cases, I expect that two power feats in the multiclass archetype role will be judged acceptable to most players as the sweet spot, especially where they can maximize the effectiveness of those feats. For example, allowing Core Valeros to take the Bard Multiclass Archetype role will most likely give him access to the bard’s Arcane/Divine proficiencies/skills via his d12 Charisma – very effective. The tradeoff, though, is that he’ll have to sacrifice weapons or armors (his main fighter cards) to get those spells. Or maybe he’ll go for the musical inspiration power to add 1d4 to local non-combat checks instead. By allowing up to five power feats in the original class, he can choose one of those while still progressing as a fighter. In Wrath of the Righteous, meanwhile, Valeros will have to assign at least five power feats, and possibly more, to the Bard Multiclass Archetype role since he’ll be limited in his power feats as a fighter. He could easily take all six as a Hand Size increase and in the magic and musical inspiration powers while remaining effective as a fighter. A fighter with a different skill set might opt for other Powers. For example, Vika probably wouldn’t be interested in the Arcane spellcasting as a bard, magus, sorcerer, summoner, witch, or wizard since she has both Intelligence and Charisma of d4. If she were to take the Bard Multiclass Archetype role, she might be more interested in the musical inspiration power and/or the Diplomacy/allies power, enabling her to take more allies and gain their benefits. Vika might opt for some other multiclass, however (and I plan to develop multiclass archetypes for each of the other classes such as witch, gunslinger, oracle, etc. once we get this concept refined).
Ultimately, limiting how power feats are distributed is the mechanism for imposing the consequences of the choice. Just as choosing between roles has consequences (i.e., the power feats on one role card are available and those on the other are not), choosing to multiclass should similarly have consequences. The trick is in finding a way to make the consequences balanced and attractive so that players might opt to make that choice.
An alternative [to the limit of five power feats on the role card] might be to identify some fraction/percentage. For example, a character may be allowed to have no more than ½ (rounded up) of their power feats assigned to the base class role card, with the rest being on the multiclass archetype role. This would force a relatively even progression through each of the classes and would allow for the following:
Rise of the Runelords, Skull & Shackles, and Mummy’s Mask
3 base class role card and 4 multiclass archetype role card power feats
4 base class role card and 3 multiclass archetype role card power feats
Wrath of the Righteous
3 base class role card and 8 multiclass archetype role card power feats
4 base class role card and 7 multiclass archetype role card power feats
5 base class role card and 6 multiclass archetype role card power feats
6 base class role card and 5 multiclass archetype role card power feats
Note that the number of power feats gained from completing the Threshold of the End scenario depends upon the number of times that Khorramzadeh Reborn is defeated, which could be multiple times if other locations aren’t temporarily closed/guarded, so 11 is the minimum number of power feats that characters may have at the end of this AP. The addition of the multiclass archetype role becomes very interesting here as each character would have more than 12 power feats to choose from. If the party defeats Khorramzadeh Reborn three (or more) times, they would then have more than 12 power feats, so multiclassed characters could have 13 or more total power feats.
Core Set/Curse of the Crimson Throne
2 base class role card and 4 multiclass archetype role card power feats
3 base class role card and 3 multiclass archetype role card power feats
If we accept the proposition that the multiclass archetype role cards are weaker than the other role cards (I accept that proposition), a more attractive prospect might be to instead allow the character to have no more than ⅔ (rounded up) of their power feats assigned to the base class role card. This would allow for the following:
Rise of the Runelords, Skull & Shackles, and Mummy’s Mask
3 base class role card and 4 multiclass archetype role card power feats
4 base class role card and 3 multiclass archetype role card power feats
5 base class role card and 2 multiclass archetype role card power feats
Wrath of the Righteous
3 base class role card and 8 multiclass archetype role card power feats
4 base class role card and 7 multiclass archetype role card power feats
5 base class role card and 6 multiclass archetype role card power feats
6 base class role card and 5 multiclass archetype role card power feats
7 base class role card and 4 multiclass archetype role card power feats
8 base class role card and 3 multiclass archetype role card power feats
Core Set/Curse of the Crimson Throne
2 base class role card and 4 multiclass archetype role card power feats
3 base class role card and 3 multiclass archetype role card power feats
4 base class role card and 2 multiclass archetype role card power feats
In my mind, the ⅔ option gives players more agency and makes the option much more attractive without being too powerful. There is still an opportunity cost: the player is limited in the number of power feats they can assign to the base class role card. Upon choosing to multiclass, they would have to select a power feat from the multiclass archetype role card to meet the distribution restriction, and that seems to adequately represent the concept that they are multiclassing. After that, they have a little more freedom for choosing between the two cards when deciding which power feat to take.
Whatever we end up doing, I don’t see any “ugly convoluted wording” being necessary. It could be as simple as:
When you would gain a role card, you may choose a role card and you may use this card in addition if do not have the [class] trait. A character may have no more than one multiclass archetype role card. No more than two thirds (rounded up) of your total power feats may be selected on your normal role card; all other power feats must be selected on this multiclass archetype role card. You gain the [class] trait.
I mistakenly counted 4 power feats pre-role in WotR where there are only 3, like in other pre-Core classic APs.
No, you were correct with the count of four (both classic and Core/Curse of the Crimson Throne). In most cases, you’ll see them as one Hand Size power feat and three Powers power feats. In a few cases, one of the Powers power feats is replaced with a Proficient With power feat. In all cases, however, there are four power feats prior to gaining a role.
Ultimately, Wrath of the Righteous isn’t a “meterstick,” but is instead one factor that has to be considered when determining how to limit power feat distribution. Basically, whatever we come up with as a general use rule has to work in that AP without modification.
I don’t know that the few opportunities to change power feats during an adventure path really matter here. After all, how often do these occasions occur in each adventure path? Even then, the normal structure for power feat progression has to be followed when rearranging the power feats. What we’re doing here is developing the structure for (late career*) multiclassing into the progression. The whole point of multiclassing is to progress in two classes, so it seems fundamental that choosing a multiclass archetype role will require at least one power feat be assigned to the second class. While PACG emulates PFRPG to a degree, there are levels of abstraction and multiclassing won’t work in the exact same way in each game. I think the ⅔ option is better than my original max 5 option. I may be wrong in this, of course, which is why playtesting is important to determine actual playability versus relying solely on theory.
* Characters who multiclass from the start have always been possible via standard character/role development, and these would be much like the hybrid classes such as the magus, warpriest, and bloodrager.
I’ve been working on multiclass archetype role cards for the other classes for which there were iconic characters in the line of classic PACG products. My methodology was to use the base powers on those characters’ cards for these multiclass versions, using the wording we developed in converting each of these characters to the Core Set rules, as seen here. Of these, the swashbuckler is the only iconic character for which there was no class deck, though the iconic swashbuckler, the half-elf Jirelle, was presented in Skull & Shackles. My rendition of the multiclass archetype here has attempted to remove the AP-specific aspects of the character’s powers for a more generic representation of the swashbuckler. I also incorporated some powers from each of her roles, again, avoiding the stuff that seemed themed to Skull & Shackles.
Of note, three of the 1e iconic characters have been replaced in 2e (not including the Alchemist, for which the goblin Fumbus replaced the elf Damiel). The tengu Korakai has replaced the human Alahazra as the iconic oracle; the dwarf Nhalmika has replaced the half elf Lirianne as the iconic gunslinger; and the human Ija has replaced the gnome Balazar as the iconic summoner. Since the classic/1e iconic characters didn’t appear to have any overt race-based power feats, I considered the classic characters’ powers to be suitable for this project. Many of Alahazra’s Fire-based powers, however, seemed to be more Alahazra and less oracle, so I looked at her powers across various iterations (Skull & Shackles, Mummy’s Mask, and the Oracle Class Deck) to find what I hoped were more generic oracle powers. In one case, I drew upon one of the other oracles, Ramexes, since it was similar to one of the powers that S&S Alahazra had.
There were a few PFRPG 1e classes which became subclasses or archetypes in 2e. These include the arcanist, bloodrager, cavalier, hunter, inquisitor, ninja, samurai, shifter, and warpriest. Notably, the only three of these for which there were actual class decks were the hunter, inquisitor, and warpriest. The bloodrager (Crowe) and cavalier (Alain) were presented as AP-specific versions in Wrath of the Righteous while the other characters were presented as generic versions via the add-on decks. Regardless, I’ve left these alone for now. Those that have become subclasses or class archetypes might be added later, but those that have become [regular] archetypes will probably be left for that project (under ’s vision).
I have also omitted the various occult classes for now. Some either no longer figure into PFRPG 2d (i.e., the mesmerist) or have become subclasses/archetypes of other classes (e.g., the spiritualist is now a type of summoner, the occultist has become the thaumaturge, and the medium has been replaced by the animist). The psychic and the kineticist remain, but the 1e iconic human psychic Rivani has been replaced by the elf psychic Thaleon in PFRPG 2e (Yoon remains Yoon). I’m saving some of these for later, though the ones that have become new classes or for which the iconics have changed might require separate character development first, followed by multiclass archetype role development based on those new characters.
In many cases, the non-iconic characters in the various class decks represent nonstandard versions of the class. For example, the dwarf gunslinger Angban makes heavy use of armors; and the angelkin magus Talitha is both a staff magus and angelkin. If the iconic character doesn’t have enough powers to develop ten power feats, I’ve looked at the roles and the other characters in that class (including those that appear in the APs) for suitable powers, but I’ve avoided the nonstandard powers.
The summoner was challenging in that a summoner’s eidolon is important and all the iterations of the summoners have significant correspondence with the powers of their eidolons. For example, Alase’s eidolon, Tonbarse, can be displayed next to a location and Alase has powers allowing her to do things based on that location. This might fall into the same category of nonstandard character types, as described for the magus above. What it really means is that players are less likely to choose Tonbarse as their eidolon, instead focusing on Ahtez, Blood God Nulgreth, or one of the versions of Padrig (Wrath of the Righteous and Summoner Class Deck). What I would love to see is a pool of generic eidolons, much like the witches had a pool of generic familiars, that summoners might choose from. That’s best left for another project, however.
To be effective, a few of these classes require a modification to the Cards List so they can use class-based cohorts. These include the magus, summoner, and witch. The concept I have in my mind is that choosing to use a multiclass archetype role card unlocks the corresponding class deck as the character’s second deck (in Guild play) or for access to suitable cards (in regular play). In this way, a gunslinger character might have access to more Firearm weapons, Ammunition items, etc.; and a magus, summoner, and witch might have access to appropriate cohorts.
Also, pending revision based on discussion, I’ve amended the basic text to incorporate the power feat distribution restrictions. It’s definitely wordier than the previous version, but I could see this text appearing on the reverse side of the card and not interfering with the actual power feat boxes, much like we see with Blackjack. The “You gain the (Class) trait.” Portion might appear on the other side.
When you would gain a role card, you may choose a role card and you may use this card in addition if do not have the Gunslinger trait. A character may have no more than one multiclass archetype role card. No more than two thirds (rounded up) of your total power feats may be selected on your normal role card; all other power feats must be selected on this multiclass archetype role card. You gain the Gunslinger trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skill Ranged: Dexterity +2. You are proficient with Weapons. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 (□ #) Firearm weapons as spells, armors, or blessings.
□ When you play a Firearm card, if you would bury (□ or discard) (□ or recharge) it or shuffle it into your deck, you may keep it and perform the required action with another card instead.
□ On a distant (□ any) combat check, you may shuffle a card into your deck to add 1d4 (□ 1d6).
□ Gain the skills Craft: Intelligence +1 and Perception: Wisdom +2.
When you would gain a role card, you may choose a role card and you may use this card in addition if do not have the Magus trait. A character may have no more than one multiclass archetype role card. No more than two thirds (rounded up) of your total power feats may be selected on your normal role card; all other power feats must be selected on this multiclass archetype role card. You gain the Magus trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
Treat your CARDS LIST as if it says “COHORT: MAGUS ARCANA”
□ Gain the skill Arcane: Intelligence +2. You are proficient with Arcane. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 (□ #) spells as weapons, armors, or blessings.
□ Gain the skill Melee: Strength +2. You are proficient with Weapon. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 (□ #) Melee weapons as spells, items, or blessings.
□ On your check to recharge a spell, you may recharge a weapon (□ or any boon) to succeed (□ then you may shuffle your deck).
□ When you succeed at a check to defeat a bane (□ or to acquire a Magic boon), you may examine the top card of your deck; if it is Magus Arcana, you may recharge a spell to draw it.
When you would gain a role card, you may choose a role card and you may use this card in addition if do not have the Oracle trait. A character may have no more than one multiclass archetype role card. No more than two thirds (rounded up) of your total power feats may be selected on your normal role card; all other power feats must be selected on this multiclass archetype role card. You gain the Oracle trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skill Divine: Charisma +2. You are proficient with Divine. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 (□ #) Divine spells as weapons, armors, or items.
□ You may recharge a blessing (□ or a Divine card) to examine the top 2 (□ or 3) cards of any location (□ and put them back in any order). You may not use this power during an encounter.
□ You may discard a spell to banish a Curse card next to the deck of a local character.
□ After recovery, you may discard a Divine card to draw a Divine card from your discards.
□ On your check that invokes Attack, add 2.
When you would gain a role card, you may choose a role card and you may use this card in addition if do not have the Swashbuckler trait. A character may have no more than one multiclass archetype role card. No more than two thirds (rounded up) of your total power feats may be selected on your normal role card; all other power feats must be selected on this multiclass archetype role card. You gain the Swashbuckler trait.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ You are proficient with Weapon. On your check that invokes Finesse, gain the skill Melee: Dexterity +2 (□ +3). When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 (□ #) Finesse weapons as spells, armors, or blessings.
□ On your Swashbuckling check, you may reroll 1 die (□ or 2 dice).
□ You gain the skill Diplomacy: Charisma +2.
□ When you acquire a Finesse or Ranged card, you may immediately recharge it to draw a card.
□ When you defeat a monster on your exploration, if any of your checks to defeat had the Swashbuckling trait, you may discard (□ or recharge) a card to explore.
When you would gain a role card, you may choose a role card and you may use this card in addition if do not have the Summoner trait. A character may have no more than one multiclass archetype role card. No more than two thirds (rounded up) of your total power feats may be selected on your normal role card; all other power feats must be selected on this multiclass archetype role card. You gain the Summoner trait.
Select one Eidolon cohort. Treat your CARDS LIST as if it says “COHORT: (EIDOLON COHORT NAME)” for the rest of the adventure path.
HAND SIZE □ +1
After you play an Attack spell, bury it.
□ Gain the skill Arcane: Charisma +2. You are proficient with Arcane. When rebuilding, you may treat up to #-1 (□ #)( □ #+1) non-Attack spells as weapons, armors, or allies.
□ You may recharge a spell to draw a new monster.
□ When you defeat a monster and would banish it, you may draw it instead. You may banish a monster from your hand to (□ draw a card or to) add 1d4 (□ 1d6) plus the monster’s level to a local combat check (□ or to reduce damage a local character suffers by 1 plus the monster’s level)(□ or to recharge a spell from your discards).
When you would gain a role card, you may choose a role card and you may use this card in addition if do not have the Witch trait. A character may have no more than one multiclass archetype role card. No more than two thirds (rounded up) of your total power feats may be selected on your normal role card; all other power feats must be selected on this multiclass archetype role card. You gain the Witch trait.
Select one Familiar cohort. Treat your CARDS LIST as if it says “COHORT: (FAMILIAR COHORT NAME)” for the rest of the adventure path.
HAND SIZE □ +1
□ Gain the skill Knowledge: Intelligence +2. You are proficient with Arcane. When rebuilding, you may treat up to # (□ #+1) Arcane spells as weapons, armors, or blessings.
□ On a local check to acquire an ally or defeat a barrier (□ or a monster), you may recharge a card to reduce the difficulty of that check by 1 (□ 2) plus the card’s level.
□ When you fail to defeat a non-story bane monster, you may recharge a spell to shuffle the monster into a random (□ or any) other open location.
□ When you would remove a Curse or scourge, you may draw it instead. You may banish a Curse or scourge from your hand to add 1d4 to a local combat check (□ or to recharge a spell from your discards).
I am pleased to see this exercise continue! I still wish I was less busy these days so I could better participate.
The two things I would consider changing with this iteration are:
1. Giving cohorts for free. Cohorts are a strong class feature. Many are stronger than some of the feats on the multiclass role cards.
2. The 2/3 rule. Too much math. If you don't want single-feat dips, I'd say something like, "Unless you have 2 feats selected on this role card, your first power feat taken at level 6 must be selected from this role," but honestly, I don't think a single-feat dip is so bad. I'm interested to learn your thinking on this.
Also, is there any reason why a character must multiclass at level 3? Using Core rules, that's the start of level 3 - pretty early on. Why not decide at level 4 or 5 that you're not enamored with your remaining options and want to switch things up? (Maybe the feat tree you've been planning on is seeming like a dud.)
Compounding this, if you have to multiclass at level 3, the 2/3 rule would mean you must take a multiclass feat at level 3. That seems to exacerbate the concern of weakening the class role (which we discussed when the original plan was to pick a multiclass role instead of one's own role card.
Continued thanks for the work you're putting in on this!
Thanks for the input, Whipstitch!
1. Giving cohorts for free. Cohorts are a strong class feature. Many are stronger than some of the feats on the multiclass role cards.
Yes, cohorts can be very strong, especially with the three classes for which I’ve included them (magus, summoner, and witch). The problem, however, is that cohorts are the mechanism that were built into these classes in their class decks and some of the APs and they weren’t redesigned in Core. We could tone things down, but that would require redesigning them to work with the multiclass archetypes. I would definitely like to do that in the future, but the current effort is intended to make things work with the existing products (Core conversion notwithstanding), simply adding these multiclass archetype role cards into the mix. Hayato (Ultimate Combat Add-On Deck) had the cohort Jinfu, and that deck was one of the last decks produced for the classic line of products. However, Occult Adventures 1 Estra (spiritualists are now a form of summoner in PFRPG 2e) had the loot ally Honaire. It is also worth noting that while cohorts have been retained in Core, Lini’s sidekick, Droogami, is a loot ally with the trait of “Owner: Lini” instead of being a cohort, so I think your concerns are well-founded and there is a solid path forward for “fixing” the problem of cohorts that are permanently associated with characters (instead of those that are only available temporarily via scenario rules). That would only work for future versions of these types of characters, however. I expect that simply introducing these multiclass cards into the mix is challenging enough without also changing how certain decks and cards work.
…is there any reason why a character must multiclass at level 3?
To be honest, that was a reflexive thing that simply introduced this option into the mix where role cards are normally introduced (which can vary with the adventure path). My initial idea was inspired by ’s idea about archetypes, and in the classic line of PACG products, many roles represented archetypes from the PFRPG. Since multiclassing in PFRPG 2e is referred to as having a “multiclass archetype,” it seemed only obvious to integrate the concept in the same way as other archetypes (though it should be noted that PFRPG 2e has three different types of archetypes). You imply a very interesting alternative. However…
2. The 2/3 rule. Too much math. If you don't want single-feat dips, I'd say something like, "Unless you have 2 feats selected on this role card, your first power feat taken at level 6 must be selected from this role," but honestly, I don't think a single-feat dip is so bad. I'm interested to learn your thinking on this.
…Using Core rules, that's the start of level 3 - pretty early on. Why not decide at level 4 or 5 that you're not enamored with your remaining options and want to switch things up? (Maybe the feat tree you've been planning on is seeming like a dud.)
I see two issues.
First, thematically, when a character decides to multiclass, it seems only right that they make an honest effort to advance in their second class. That advancement doesn’t necessarily need to be equal with their first class, though.
Second, from a game perspective, there needs to be a tradeoff when a character decides to multiclass. Every decision and option requires some level of tangible cost. If the cost is too low, the concept becomes something akin to a free benefit. If the cost is too high, players aren’t likely to choose to multiclass. Importantly, the cost must be tangible during game play, meaning it must be felt during the last scenario (rather than only after completing the final scenario of the adventure path).
To illustrate an example of too low a cost, let’s say that (a) the current draft of the Bard Multiclass Archetype role (we might have to remove the “role” terminology from this, see later) is acceptable. If someone is using Core Valeros, who has a Charisma d12, the Bard Multiclass Archetype role can be very attractive if the party needs either Arcane or Divine or both since the Bard ties both of those skills to Charisma. If Valeros doesn’t choose any other powers from the Bard Multiclass Archetype role, gaining Arcane and Divine (and the spells) would easily justify foregoing one of the power feats from his Fighter role. Imagine Valeros stacked with a bunch of Cure spells that he can reliably recharge, especially given his other powers that benefit local characters. The cost here is too low, the option to take spells easily offsetting one of the higher level power feats in either of his fighter roles. Similarly, just about any character can find at least one power feat on one or more of these multiclass archetype roles that would more than make up for one of their normal role power feats. A single such power feat would be too low. Having to take at least one more multiclass power feat balances things.
With regard to too high of a cost, if we assume that most characters will find too many of the multiclass archetype role power feats (any multiclass) to be practically worthless to them or of less benefit to the party because those abilities are present in other characters, and we require that multiclassed characters take too many multiclass power feats, they’ll forego the option and instead stick with one of the roles in their base class.
The combination of these two issues means that there needs to be some sort of mechanism forcing a regular advancement in the multiclass. We need to find the sweet spot where the benefits are considered sufficient that the costs don’t make the option prohibitive. Since the total number of power feats that a character might earn during an adventure path can vary, we can’t go with a fixed number. This forces us to determine some percentage/fraction/ratio that will ensure that the character advances in both classes, though that advancement doesn’t need to be equal.
Stepping back to the name of these cards, perhaps “multiclass archetype role” needs to be changed. Referring to these as any sort of “role” card might create confusion (as it has obviously done with me). What if we simply change it to a “Multiclass” card? After all, while many of the PFRPG archetypes and prestige classes are represented as roles in classic PACG products, not all roles were archetypes and prestige classes. These could then be added to the Character, Role, and, in the classic APs (and future PACG products if I ran the zoo), Token cards. Unless/until we come up with something better, from here on out, I’ll refer to these as “multiclass cards.”
In my mind, a ratio of 2:1 works best (the ⅔ rule) – for every 2 power feats checked off on the character’s base/role card, at least one must be checked off on the multiclass card.
If we adjust the timing for when a character might decide to multiclass, I would want to ensure that we don’t allow for the decision to occur too late (which might reduce the cost to too low of a level). In this, I could see allowing a character to multiclass at any point up through the completion of level 4, including during level B/0 adventures/scenarios.
If characters multiclass upon completing Adventure 4, we have the following ratios possible upon starting the final scenario in the respective adventure paths:
Rise of the Runelords, Skull & Shackles, and Mummy’s Mask - 5:2
Wrath of the Righteous – 7:3 (assuming only one power feat is earned for the Threshold of the End scenario)
(The final power feat is earned for completing Adventure 6.)
Curse of the Crimson Throne – 4:2
If the characters complete The Dragon’s Demand first – 5:2
If characters multiclass earlier in their careers, the final ratios are the same, but the ratios throughout their careers vary depending on when they actually multiclass.
All that said, if the “No more than two thirds (rounded up) of your total power feats may be selected on your normal role card; all other power feats must be selected on this multiclass card” wording is too clunky/confusing, I’m all for changing it.
Would something like the below work?
“For every two power feats checked on your character/role card, at least one power feat must be checked on this card.”
That was the first revision I’ve come up with, but I could see how someone might argue that checking a power feat on the role card such that there are more than twice the number of power feats checked on that card compared to the multiclass card would then require that an additional power feat be checked on the multiclass card without being awarded one as the result of completing a scenario (some people just want to deliberately twist things for their own benefit). So perhaps we would need to go with something along the lines of…
“If the number of power feats checked on this card is less than half the number of power feats checked on your character/role card, the next power feat you select must be on this card.”
Perhaps there’s a way to simplify that without sacrificing/obfuscating the meaning.
To summarize:
- These cards will now be called “Multiclass” cards.
- Characters can choose to multiclass at any point up through level 4 (wording TBD).
- We’ll change the wording for the ratio between role and multiclass power feats (TBD).
- Cohorts are what they are for now, and that’s out of our control as we work to integrate these cards in with the existing characters, but I’ll be happy to rework them (the characters and their cohorts) in the future.
I think that’s a very interesting idea, Jenceslav, and I would bet that Lone Shark planned to do something very much like it as they continued development of PACG post-Core. In fact, that is something I would very much like to see if PACG is ever revitalized.
However, one of the tenets of this project is that everything has to work with the entire range of PACG products, including the classic products. In the case of the gunslinger and Firearm weapons, this is especially important. So just as the designs of the magus, summoner, and witch characters force us to preserve the existing cohorts for those multiclass cards, the design of the Firearm weapons forces us to continue using the Weapon (or Weapons) proficiency for the gunslinger multiclass card, especially since we didn’t change/add to the gunslingers’ proficiencies in the Core Set Version Character Sheets for Legacy Characters? project (except for the Light Armors thing). Most (all?) of the Firearm weapons have text that alludes to the wielder being “proficient with weapons” improves the chance to shuffle the weapon into their deck instead of burying it after use (e.g., blunderbuss, hand cannon, pepperbox, and salt box).
It should also be noted that all the gunslinger characters have powers that allow them to avoid permanently burying Firearm weapons. Here they are using the pre-Core wording:
When you play a weapon that has the Firearm trait, if you would bury it or shuffle it into your deck, you may keep it and instead perform the required action with another card.
At the end of your turn, you may recharge a buried weapon that has the Firearm trait (□ or a buried armor).
When you play a card that has the Firearm trait, if you would bury (□ or discard) (□ or recharge) it or shuffle it into your deck, you may keep it and perform the required action
with another card instead.
When you play a card that has the Alchemical or Firearm trait, if you would recharge it or shuffle it into your deck, you may put it on top of your deck instead. (□ If you would bury or banish it, you may discard it instead.)
Those are all base character powers. So it’s entirely possible that the increased chance of characters with Weapons (not just Firearms) proficiency shuffling Firearms into their deck instead of burying them is deliberate, representing skilled weapons handlers understanding how to use such weapons without [temporarily] destroying them. Given that, even if the gunslingers were given a Firearm[s] proficiency, they would still need to have the Weapon[s] proficiency until post-Core Firearms weapons are introduced with a redesigned bury/shuffle mechanic based on the Firearm[s] proficiency. In that event, giving the gunslingers a Firearm[s] proficiency wouldn’t provide any benefits under the current situation.
There are several things I’d like to discuss and, where necessary, make changes.
As noted in a previous reply, there are some powers that seem to be based more on the character (or the adventure path) and less on the class. While I’ve started with the base characters, occasionally incorporating powers from roles, some of these powers might need to be adjusted to be more in keeping with the typical representation of the class. I’ve removed a few already, but there are a few others that bear discussion. While the iconic characters are “iconic,” they are, on occasion, exceptional in certain ways. We’ll address this class by class after we knock out some general issues (below).
First, we need to look at the issue of numbers are expressed in the hand size modifications. Where I’ve gone with the scaling number using #, fixed numbers have been suggested as an alternative; and I think that bears discussion/playtesting. My thought process behind using the scaling numbers is that it mimics the cards list progression sort of. Where this implementation is different is that this doesn’t actually change the cards list (i.e., deck size), simply allowing the player to deviate from the existing cards list to modify the composition of the cards. This is at the expense of other cards, so there is a tradeoff. There is a solid argument to go with the fixed numbers, so my presentation of the scaling numbers has been tentative. I’m not even sure if the scaling numbers that I’ve presented are “correct.” In the next version of the characters, I plan to change from the scaling (#) numbers to fixed numbers, using the starting cards lists of the iconic characters as a starting point. In many cases, a character might already be allowed to take some number of the cards needed for the multiclass, but there are a few where the character cannot take any and would need the deck modification powers to be effective in their new class (this is most obvious with spells when the base class is not a spellcaster).
Second, what does everyone think about characters’ favored card types being modified, with the favored card type of the iconic character being added? This would be added to the relevant powers where the favored card type is added. For example, Core Amiri’s favored card is a Melee Weapon, so some other character multiclassing as a barbarian would gain Melee Weapon as a favored card type (in addition to their original favored card(s)). I’ve provided an example of how this might look below.
Third, I’ve moved the “You gain the [Class] trait.” statement to below the hand size feat. As I mentioned in a previous post, the text that preceded that statement will probably appear on the reverse side, with this statement being included on the side with the actual powers. The favored card modification is appended to this sentence, as is any statement about adding a cohort or other card.
Fourth, with the adjustment of these from a supplementary type of role card to a distinct card that can be chosen anywhere up to the end of Adventure 4, and with the input about the complicated wording of the ⅔ rule, we need to revise the general text that appears on the reverse of the card. I’m tentatively proposing a revision below, but there’s definitely room for improvement.
So here is how this might look using my previous proposal for the Magus Multiclass card:
If do not have the Magus trait, you may choose to take the Magus multiclass card at any point prior to starting Adventure 5. A character may have no more than one multiclass card. If the number of power feats checked on this card is less than half the number of power feats checked on your character/role card, the next power feat you select must be on this card. A character may never have more than 12 power feat boxes checked in total.
HAND SIZE □ +1
You gain the Magus trait. Add “OR SPELL OR WEAPON” to your FAVORED CARD. Add “COHORT: MAGUS ARCANA” to your CARDS LIST.
□ Gain the skill Arcane: Intelligence +2. You are proficient with Arcane. When rebuilding, you may treat up to 4 (□ 5) spells as weapons, armors, or blessings.
□ Gain the skill Melee: Strength +2. You are proficient with Weapon. When rebuilding, you may treat up to 4 (□ 5) Melee weapons as spells, items, or blessings.
□ On your check to recharge a spell, you may recharge a weapon (□ or any boon) to succeed (□ then you may shuffle your deck).
□ When you succeed at a check to defeat a bane (□ or to acquire a Magic boon), you may examine the top card of your deck; if it is Magus Arcana, you may recharge a spell to draw it.
Shortly after posting the above, I realized that the "...at any point prior to..." verbiage allowed for shenanigans. I could see someone arguing that they could take a multiclass card mid-encounter (though I'm not sure where that might be beneficial). So I quickly modified the complete text to the following (new part in italics):
If do not have the trait, you may select the multiclass card during rebuilding at any point prior to starting Adventure 5. A character may have no more than one multiclass card. If the number of power feats checked on this card is less than half the number of power feats checked on your character/role card, the next power feat you select must be on this card. A character may never have more than 12 power feat boxes checked in total.
I don't think you want players to be able to take a multiclass card before their character has a role card, either.
You've set a limit of twelve power feats. Why such a high number? Can a character get anywhere near this limit? Curious what you're thinking.
I don't think you want players to be able to take a multiclass card before their character has a role card, either.
Personally, I wouldn’t take a multiclass card unless (a) I had already assigned at least one power feat to one of my character’s base powers, and (b) I had been awarded a power feat and had a plan to assign it to one of the multiclass powers. And while I doubt I would take a multiclass card until I had gained a role card, I don’t see why other players should be denied that opportunity if they see value in allowing one or more characters to multiclass earlier. And if we’re not going to tie the multiclass card to the role card, we might as well open it up as wide as is reasonable (even if it’s not a tactically sound decision to do so early). Also, it’s much more true to the PFRPG, where characters can multiclass right away.
You've set a limit of twelve power feats. Why such a high number? Can a character get anywhere near this limit? Curious what you're thinking.
In most APs, characters will only earn seven total power feats at the end of the AP (or six if they play Curse of the Crimson Throne without playing The Dragon’s Demand first).
In Wrath of the Righteous there is a scenario in Adventure 6 where characters can earn multiple power feats (Threshold of the End) based on the number of times they defeat the villain Khoramzadeh Reborn. If they earn just one (possible), they’ll have 11 total power feats at the end of the AP. If they earn two or more in that scenario, they’ll have 12 total power feats at the end of the AP. The only reason they’ll only have 12 is because there are only 12 power feat boxes on the role cards. If there were more than 12 power feat boxes on the role cards, they could earn 13 or more, the limit being based on the number of power feat boxes on the role card and how many times the party defeats Khorramzadeh Reborn. Adding the multiclass cards into the mix in addition to the role cards creates a situation where more than 12 power feat boxes are available to be checked. The multiclass cards that I’ve presented have 10 power feat boxes, giving players flexibility in deciding how to advance their multiclass characters. However, this problem would exist even if the multiclass cards were limited to four power feat boxes (which would suck for character advancement/customization). So explicitly limiting characters to 12 total power feats, while unnecessary in most APs, is necessary in a general sense and creates backward compatibility for Wrath of the Righteous and forward compatibility for future APs (in my pipe dream) or fan-created APs (under the current situation).
I am not criticising your work…
Even if you were criticizing, you are being respectful and constructive, and you are providing a different perspective on things that helps me to broaden my own perspective, and I very much appreciate that. As smart as I think I am (my mom told me I was smart), I know that I am not the sole source of good ideas and that my ideas can be improved upon. That requires input from others. I’ve already made several changes that greatly improved upon my original idea based on the suggestions of others, and I hope to continue doing so as this project continues.
As for your suggestion, I definitely agree with it. Where we differ, however, is in whether or not it is suitable right now.
While the majority of the multiclass cards that I have presented are based on the Core versions of characters and are thus able to work with Core rules concepts, several of the classes have not received the Core treatment, including the gunslinger, magus, oracle, swashbuckler, summoner, and witch (as well as a bunch for which I haven’t even proposed starting versions of the cards). Just as identified the impact of cohorts on decks (affecting the magus, summoner, and witch), you have identified the likely adjustment of the gunslingers’ weapon proficiency to firearms. I agree with both you and on the respective issues, but the aim of the project right now is to make these multiclass cards work with the existing products without making changes to those products. Changes to the existing products would require a FAQ/errata, and I expect that a majority of PACG players, especially those who aren’t active on the Paizo forums or the Pathfinder Community Discord server, would be leery of any fan-created FAQ/errata.
Once the work is done on the initial “release” of the multiclass cards (i.e., the downloadable files that I plan to make available through the Board Game Geek), I can easily see including a version of the gunslinger multiclass card that incorporates your suggestion and which includes a fan-created FAQ for all the relevant cards (e.g., the Firearm weapons in Skull & Shackles, the Gunslinger Class Deck, the Ultimate Combat Add-On Deck, and any other cards I might be forgetting about right now).
’s idea requires re-working the other characters using Core concepts. The challenge, there, however, is in determining which cohorts should remain cohorts and which should become, say, loot allies. While we saw some later characters such as Estra using loot allies instead of cohorts, the example of the half-orc summoner Thargrap and his eidolon Blood God Nulgreth is especially instructive as it demonstrates that Lone Shark felt that cohorts could still be used for [some] characters to some extent back in 2020. Whether or not they would have maintained that position is unknown, but the precedent is there. The cohort issue is much more significant as it has the potential to affect numerous character decks and two adventure paths (especially Wrath of the Righteous). There are workarounds that might be incorporated, but I’m saving that for later discussion (i.e., instead of granting these cohorts as cohorts, they might have powers along the lines of ‘You may treat one Eidolon cohort as if it says “Owner: [Character Name]”’ (that for the summoner, obviously). I could definitely see doing this as a fan-led effort to create Core versions of the characters who haven’t yet received the update treatment, as well as some of the new characters such as the oracle Korakai, the summoner Ija, the guardian Grimmyr, etc.
And of course, if my pipe dream ever becomes a reality, I expect that all of this will happen with official development rather than as a fan-led effort. Fan-led efforts are great, but they have limited reach due to their unofficial nature.
For now, though, the focus is solely on making these multiclass cards work with the existing products, especially the classic adventure paths and character decks, without changing those products.
After opening up the time span during which a character can multiclass (from it being part of the role choice to occurring anywhere prior to starting Adventure 5), it turns out the scaling deck modifications (e.g., "#-1") won't work, so we're going with 's suggestion to use fixed numbers. The main issue remaining there concerns the starting numbers. I've used the numbers from the decks of the iconic characters, with most having at least one power feat to increase that number. Are there any for which those numbers might not work?
The other big question concerns the Favored Card addition. Does anyone think we should not modify the Favored Card when a character takes a multiclass? While that choice seems logical to me, in most cases it will force a character to take a specific power feat on the multiclass card. For example, if a rogue takes the sorcerer multiclass card and their Favored Card suddenly has "OR SPELL" added, they would probably have to take the power feat that allows them to modify their deck to include spells. In most cases those are probably the powers that players want for their multiclass characters, but there may be a few exceptions.
I've created some preliminary versions of the cards. There are two corrections that need to be made to the images, but everything else seems to look okay. While I used the Blackjack card as the template, I modified the front format. Instead of using an image of a character, I've gone with the class deck image. The problem there, of course, is that we don't have such images for all classes (though I suppose it would be fun to create our own). It looks like all the text will fit on the cards (with the text being the same size as that used on the official cards). I used one of my two favorite classes, the magus, as my initial test (the warpriest is my other favorite class - I have something for spellcasting warriors).
I'll fix the images today (the bottom of the Powers box on the front and the body of the Powers box on the back - I fixed the second in the image shown).
Quick note: In working on this response, I realized that I need to re-work the proposed Witch multiclass card because a witch should only gain the Arcane skill when their Familiar is displayed. And I’ll probably need to look at the other witch powers, especially where they grant skills, to ensure that they don’t undercut the Familiars.
I had a lengthy response composed, but I realized that it was distracting us from the project at hand. In brief, concerns over the character-based (not scenario-based) cohorts are that the characters (a) effectively have their deck size increased by 1 card, (b) have their starting hand size increased by 1 card, and (c) have access to the powers on the cohort card in addition to their own powers. Typically, such a character’s powers are often strongly tied to their cohort, making them less effective when they don’t have their cohort. Ultimately, the cohorts won't be changed here. These multiclass cards will work with the existing products. That means the classes that are associated with cohorts will continue to have those associations.
You made a lot of interesting points about cohorts, and while I’d like to pursue them (indeed, I went through several versions of this response in which I did pursue them), I don’t want to distract from this project. I’d love to take them up in a separate discussion, however.
One thing I’m trying to build into these rules is that they are assumed to be for regular play, not Guild play. When a multiclass character chooses a cohort, that choice is permanent, lasting for the rest of the adventure path. Guild play allows characters to take different cohorts in different scenarios, but that’s a byproduct of Guild play and the significant chance of differing characters each time one plays. I probably need to look at the wording of the multiclass cards that allow for cohorts to ensure that the permanence of the choice is clear; and an addition will be written for the Card Guild Guide to spell out the exceptions.
I fail to see the significance how [possibly changing character-based cohorts] affects adventure paths (you probably meant WotR & Season of the Righteous, but there are few scenarios in Season of Factions' Favour that have cohorts as well). If I recall correctly, cohorts in the scenario are given to any character; they are in no way related to the characters having or not having cohorts on their own.
Actually, I was mistaken - it’s just the one adventure path, Wrath of the Righteous, that is seriously affected. In this, I was only referring to the character-based cohorts. There are five characters with cohorts in that adventure path (not to mention the half dozen or so character decks that feature cohorts). As far as I know, the scenario-based cohorts are not an issue.
It’s interesting, and frustrating, that you can’t see the linked images. If you’re on the Discord server, I’ve posted the images there, too, in the Character Creation channel. And if that doesn't work, once we get one of the multiclass cards finished, I'll post the files and images on the Board Game Geek in the associated class deck's files section (and the Core Set entry's files section for the classes that are covered within).
I'm sorry if I distracted you :)
There’s nothing to apologize for. It’s normal for discussions to wend and weave. Besides, the cohort issue is worth pursuing. If we don’t bring things up, we can’t decide whether or not they need to be discussed right now, so it’s better to bring things up and see what sticks. My project manager tendencies will assert themselves every now and then, however. ;)
I’m happy to hear that the images [finally] worked for you.
I was worried that there might be too much text on the cards, both for the rules on one side and the powers on the other. The font size on those cards is the same as on the official cards. Though the magus has less powers text than most of the others, it looks like all the current proposals will fit with plenty of room to spare (and I have no doubt that we’ll be tweaking more than a few of them, but they’ll likely still fit after we’re done).
Looking at the Magus multiclass card in patricular, I have a few minor suggestions / concerns:
Adding 4(5) cards of a given type seems like a large number at once to me. Maybe 3(4) cards would be a less abrupt change. A character with 2 Weapons would suddenly have up to 6 Weapons in their deck, more than many a Fighter (and the gain is higher than the weapon count in most Magus' decks).
Just for clarity, I’m not disagreeing here. I’m completely open to reducing [some of] the numbers. I’m simply providing some additional considerations.
Yes, the possibility of some characters “gaining” new favored cards for which they already have some quantity in their deck list is a concern. However, the more important consideration is those characters who don’t have any of the new favored card type in their deck list. For example, Valeros doesn’t have any spells. If he multiclasses as a sorcerer, he needs to go from 0 to some number of spells, and that number should be sufficient to make him effective as a sorcerer.
In addition, these characters aren’t “gaining” new cards. Their deck sizes remain the same. They have to sacrifice other cards in their deck lists to have these cards, and those sacrificed cards will often be useful to them. Going with the Valeros-sorcerer example again, Valeros would have to sacrifice weapons, armors, or blessings to get spells. As a fighter, weapons and armors are his bread and butter. He may be likely to give up one or two of either/both, but he’s going to ensure that he retains enough of each to remain viable as a fighter. So he’s most likely to give up blessings to get spells. That means he’ll be reducing his opportunities for blessing checks and taking extra explorations. The whole deck modification process is an exercise in cost-benefit analysis, and it can be a bit nerve-wracking (ask anyone who has played Mavaro about the tension in the decision-making process of rebuilding his deck).
Lastly, the number merely identifies a maximum. Players don’t necessarily have to reach that maximum. It’s entirely possible that many players will opt to modify their decks to have fewer than the maximum number of allowed cards, and in some cases they might not need any of the card modifications, especially if their deck size already allows an ample number of the boon type.
Ultimately, the concern you’ve identified was another of the reasons that I initially favored the scaling numbers, which started lower and allowed for increases that roughly paralleled the progression of card feats without requiring the use of actual feats, thematically representing the character becoming more proficient in their new class.
All that said, I’m quite amenable to starting some of the classes out with one fewer card allowed in their deck modifications.
Follow-on question: In such instances, do we need to limit power feats for deck modifications to single card increases? Characters who already have some number of the multiclass favored card(s) in their deck lists might not use/need such power feats, but characters whose deck lists don’t include any of the multiclass favored card(s) might gain value from being allowed to take a 2-card increase via a power feat. Sticking with the Valeros-sorcerer example, the rebuilding portion of the power granting Arcane/spells might say something like… “When rebuilding, you may treat up to 4 (□ 6) spells as weapons, armors, or blessings.” (That’s a change from the current 5 (□ 6).) If, say, Kyra were to multiclass as a sorcerer, she might not need the power feat to get the number of spells she wants since she already has spells in her deck list. With Valeros or Merisiel, however, being allowed too few spells might make them less viable [as sorcerers] while having a 2-card increase might increase the attractiveness of multiclassing as a sorcerer (keeping in mind the fact that they’re sacrificing other useful cards to get those spells, so there is a tradeoff).
Proficiency with Weapons in the text rather than Weapon?
The Core Set changed it to “Weapon” to align with text on the related cards (e.g., Lem is proficient with “Instrument” to match Instrument items and Valeros is proficient with “Weapon” to match weapon boons.
Is the multiclass Magus effectivity dependent on the Magus Arcana? If the cohort would be too strong, maybe use some of its powers as multiclass Magus powers.
The Magus Arcana cohort is definitely central to the magus class, and each of the magus characters [in the CD] uses that cohort in a variety of ways, including via their roles (i.e., non-base powers). And if you look at the powers of the Magus Arcana*, each option requires that it be reloaded, meaning that you’ll only get to use it once before rebuilding unless you have some mechanism for drawing it back into your hand prior to that (of which CD Seltyiel has two such powers, one of which is available via a power feat on the Magus multiclass card). I deliberately omitted one of those powers in building the Magus multiclass card in an effort to tone the class down a bit. The power I omitted was:
When you encounter a card, you may recharge a spell or an armor to draw a card.
I could have kept that one and omitted the other power:
When you succeed at a check to defeat a bane (□ or to acquire a Magic boon), you may examine the top card of your deck; if it is Magus Arcana, you may recharge a spell to draw it.
I think the decision came down to having two power feats instead of just one. Had only one power feat been available, I would have kept the other, instead. Alternately, if a third power feat had been available, I would have included both to give players options.
* Don’t get too distracted wondering what eldritch wizardry is distorting Seltyiel’s hand in that picture. ;)
Ultimately, the goal here is to make these multiclass cards integrate with the existing products, especially the class decks. The iconic characters serve as the basic model for their class. If the class uses cohorts, the multiclass card for that class will similarly use the same cohorts. The only class that is really problematic is the summoner because that class deck doesn’t have generic cohorts, each cohort instead being intrinsically tied to its character. Despite that, multiclassed summoners can work, though I think we’ll see most players opting to use either version of Padrig.
Changing any of these classes so that they use an alternative to cohorts is something that might be done further down the road, but not now.
Here’s the concept we’re working towards right now (i.e., this is the end-state for this stage):
Conceptually, I’m developing these as if the card for each class were to be included in the corresponding class deck. A character choosing that class for multiclassing would then use that deck as their second deck in Guild play, using the deck that the character appears in or which matches their class (if they’re not in a deck) as their first deck. This will also be useful in regular play for some classes where cards from the class deck would need to be added to a box for the character to be useful throughout the AP (e.g., Gunslinger). Obviously, the multiclass cards won’t actually be in class decks, but if we ever see my pipe dream realized, that is what would happen [in updated class decks] if I ran the zoo.
The finished products will be developed as both cards and sheets. The sheets will simply be larger versions of the card images, available as .pdf files. The cards will be in image (.jpg or .png) or .pdf format for printing.
Both versions for each class will be uploaded to the Board Game Geek website, each being uploaded in the corresponding class deck entry. In addition, all the classes will be collected into omnibus files, one for the cards and one for the sheets, with those files uploaded to the Core Set entry on the Board Game Geek.
Once I work through the Community Use Policy / Fan Content Policy requirements/limitations, I’ll also make these available as individual cards from Drive Thru Cards or Pathfinder Infinite (and I might have to look at the Pathfinder Infinite Policy requirements/limitations, too).
Yes, the possibility of some characters “gaining” new favored cards for which they already have some quantity in their deck list is a concern. However, the more important consideration is those characters who don’t have any of the new favored card type in their deck list. For example, Valeros doesn’t have any spells. If he multiclasses as a sorcerer, he needs to go from 0 to some number of spells, and that number should be sufficient to make him effective as a sorcerer.
In addition, these characters aren’t “gaining” new cards. Their deck sizes remain the same. They have to sacrifice other cards in their deck lists to have these cards, and those sacrificed cards will often be useful to them.
I think this makes a lot of sense. I don't see a problem being generous with the number of cards being swapped as long as the cards type given up is important to the original class.
A character choosing that class for multiclassing would then use that deck as their second deck in Guild play..."
It seems implied here that characters are being built with a single deck. Since many (most?) Guild characters are built with a second deck (or Adventurer Packs) when created, are you saying such characters couldn't multiclass? That would eliminate the flexibility to decide to multiclass in the middle of a campaign, whether to shore up a weakness discovered in the party ("Well, we thought we could get by without a healer, but...") or someone simply deciding their not satisfied with some aspect of how their character is playing and wanting to change things up.
It seems implied here that characters are being built with a single deck. Since many (most?) Guild characters are built with a second deck (or Adventurer Packs) when created, are you saying such characters couldn't multiclass?
That is one of the questions that has been bothering me.
As it stands right now, the Pathfinder Adventure Card Guild Guide 6.2 allows a character's deck to be built as one of the following:
Class Deck
Ultimate Add-On Deck
three Adventurer's Packs
Class Deck and Ultimate Add-On Deck together
Class Deck and two Adventurer's Packs together
Ultimate Add-On Deck and one Adventurer's Pack together
The least messy thing I can think of is that the Class Deck for the multiclass, if one exists, can be added into the mix and the player can adjust the build option at the time of multiclassing. This also adds the following combination to the mix:
Class Deck (base class) and Class Deck (multiclass)
And if the character's deck uses a card from the multiclass Class Deck, such as a character that takes the Magus Multiclass card and has to take the Magus Arcana cohort, they have to choose one of the combinations that allows at least one Class Deck, with the multiclass Class Deck being part of the resulting combination.
The player may have to remove some cards from the character's deck at this point. For example, if Core Valeros builds his deck using the Fighter Class Deck and the Ultimate Combat Add-On Deck, then he multiclasses as a sorcerer, he'll have to remove either the Fighter Class Deck cards or the Ultimate Combat Add-On Deck cards to include either the Sorcerer Class Deck or the Ultimate Magic Add-On Deck or some combination of the adventurer's packs that includes sufficient spells.
Yes, that does remove some flexibility. I see that as part of the decision making process in determining whether or not to multiclass, however.
Either that or we just say that such characters can (must*) add the multiclass Class Deck to their combination, with the end result looking like:
Class Deck (base class) and Class Deck (multiclass)
Ultimate Add-On Deck and Class Deck (multiclass)
three Adventurer's Packs and Class Deck (multiclass)
Class Deck (base class) and Ultimate Add-On Deck and Class Deck (multiclass) together
Class Deck (base class) and Class Deck (multiclass) and two Adventurer's Packs together
Ultimate Add-On Deck and Class Deck (multiclass) and one Adventurer's Pack together
People might balk at characters being able to build their decks using three decks or the equivalent.
However, this is homegrown rules stuff, so it wouldn't be usable in Guild play anyways. The only reason we would have to make it usable in Guild play is if my pipe dream is realized and this concept is incorporated into the official rules (I won't hold my breath, but I can keep dreaming).
* This would be in the cases where they choose any cards from the multiclass Class Deck.
The player may have to remove some cards from the character's deck at this point. For example, if Core Valeros builds his deck using the Fighter Class Deck and the Ultimate Combat Add-On Deck, then he multiclasses as a sorcerer, he'll have to remove either the Fighter Class Deck cards or the Ultimate Combat Add-On Deck cards to include either the Sorcerer Class Deck or the Ultimate Magic Add-On Deck or some combination of the adventurer's packs that includes sufficient spells.
I'd suggest that if said Valeros was required to remove, say, the Ultimate Combat deck, he'd be allowed to swap upgrades taken from the Ultimate deck with upgrades from the Multiclass deck of the same type and level. Obviously, he'd be behind the curve on spells since he wouldn't have had any spell upgrades, but at least he'd have upgrades for card types such as items, and allies.
Another option would be to allow swaps to include the deck he's keeping (in this example, his original Fighter class deck). Otherwise, weapon upgrades would be completely lost. In this case, these would be upgrades he could have taken, so this seems more straight forward. After all, if the weapon 4 from the Fighter deck was better than the weapon 4 from the Ultimate deck, he'd have taken it in the first place.
However, this is homegrown rules stuff, so it wouldn't be usable in Guild play anyways. The only reason we would have to make it usable in Guild play is if my pipe dream is realized and this concept is incorporated into the official rules . . .
It's almost as if you're questioning the value of making rules for Society play if they wouldn't be Society-legal. There will be people who will still follow Society rules, even if Paizo couldn't care less. Providing options for those who want to use the Society "system" is still worthwhile. Sure, these players wouldn't be able to report their sessions as official. However, as I've mentioned before, I know players that just prefer the structure of Society play and using class decks, whether I report their sessions or not. It would be nice for such players to have cool new options.
There are two issues that I’d like to resolve now. These relate to cohorts and duplicating spellcasting abilities.
On the issue of cohorts, while we’re not going to change the cohorts or the classes associated with cohorts at this point, I think it’s safe to say that there is a consensus that we want to ensure that cohorts don’t create additional imbalances. The classes associated with cohorts are: magus, summoner, and witch. In addition, the cavalier, hunter, samurai, and shaman have cohorts, though we haven’t worked on them yet (the hunter is now a type of ranger, and the shaman is a type of animist, so we might not even cover down on those classes). I’m pretty sure that most (all?) of us would agree that we don’t want a character to have two cohorts, however. To that end, when a multiclass card confers a cohort, we might change the text to the following (addition in ):
If you do not have the <Class> trait , you may choose to take the <Class> multiclass card during rebuilding at any point prior to starting Adventure 5. A character may have no more than one multiclass card. When you gain a power feat, you may choose it from either your character/role card or this card. If the number of power feats checked on this card is less than half the number of power feats checked on your character/role card, the next power feat you select must be on this card. A character may never have more than 12 power feat boxes checked in total.
By phrasing it as “…and your DECK LIST does not include a cohort,” we include characters like Arueshalae, who does not belong to any of the classes I listed (she is a Spy), as well as any other characters who have cohorts (e.g., Alain).
Does that work to mitigate a potential issue?
Is there any other wording that might be superior?
A concern I have with this is that this wording doesn’t work well for a role card that confers a cohort. There are no such official cards that do this right now, so that’s really only an issue for homegrown efforts or if my pipe dream is realized. In that eventuality, the likely solution would be a general part of the rules for cohorts in the rulebook (i.e., we might not need to cover it on these cards).
This issue is a little more iffy, and some cases may be mitigated by the above solution for cohorts (or whatever we end up doing there).
To illustrate, is anyone concerned about a wizard character multiclassing as a sorcerer?
In many cases, these might simply be inefficient and players will avoid such duplication because it would provide little or no value. I mostly see this where a character already has the Arcane skill and takes a multiclass where they can duplicate that skill (I’m not sure if the same problem arises with the Divine spellcasters). In many cases, duplication can simply be avoided by not taking certain power feats. For example, if the wizard Darago multiclasses as a sorcerer, he wouldn’t need to take the power feat that confers the Arcane skill/proficiency and spells. We would then have to consider if other powers on the Sorcerer multiclass card might be too powerful for other arcane spellcasters, creating imbalance.
Again, I’m not sure if this is an actual problem. It’s simply something that occurred to me in considering potential imbalances. I think it mostly occurred to me because it seems counterintuitive for several of the arcane spellcasters, especially since the many of the different classes offer different sources for the spellcaster’s abilities. For example, a summoner’s spellcasting is focused on their eidolon, a witch’s is focused on their familiar, a sorcerer's is focused on their bloodline/innate abilities, a wizard’s is focused on study/memorization, etc. Allowing multiclass combinations that provide duplicate sources just seems wrong thematically. If the PFRPG doesn’t prohibit such multiclass combinations, however, perhaps it’s not a problem here (i.e., I might be overthinking this one).
Somehow I missed ’s reply when I submitted my previous post. What I think happened is that it wasn't there when I began composing my post and it was submitted before I submitted my own, but I failed to refresh before submitting my own. Anyhoo, it should not be ignored.
For what it's worth, I'm keen to develop rules if we think they will be of value to players. It's just that I'm not sure how many such players there are or if they will use these rules. It wouldn't hurt to develop rules, however, letting players use/ignore them as they will.
I'd suggest that if said Valeros was required to remove, say, the Ultimate Combat deck, he'd be allowed to swap upgrades taken from the Ultimate deck with upgrades from the Multiclass deck of the same type and level. Obviously, he'd be behind the curve on spells since he wouldn't have had any spell upgrades, but at least he'd have upgrades for card types such as items, and allies.
Another option would be to allow swaps to include the deck he's keeping (in this example, his original Fighter class deck). Otherwise, weapon upgrades would be completely lost. In this case, these would be upgrades he could have taken, so this seems more straight forward. After all, if the weapon 4 from the Fighter deck was better than the weapon 4 from the Ultimate deck, he'd have taken it in the first place.
I’m inclined to go with the second option as I think it gives more agency to the player, with the modification that the cards from the removed deck/pack could be replaced by cards of the same type and equal or lower level.
Actually, it seems quite possible that the character’s deck might see more significant changes and the player might choose to also replace cards from the remaining deck/pack. For example, if CD Valeros had his original deck built using the Fighter and Ultimate Combat decks, then he chooses to multiclass as a Rogue, he would keep either the Fighter or Ultimate Combat deck and then replace the other with (probably) either the Rogue Class Deck or the Ultimate Equipment Add-On Deck. Let’s say he chooses to keep both of the Ultimate decks. He might decide to exchange some of his Ultimate Combat add-on deck cards in addition to having to replace the cards from the Fighter Class Deck. So the summary of this is that the character would have to replace cards in the lost deck/pack(s) and they may replace cards from the deck/pack(s) that remain, but the replacement cards must come from the new deck and they must be of the same type and of the same level or lower (allowing for the deck modifications to further tweak things).
This would probably require a detailed example. Unless you have some other character-multiclass in mind, I'll start working on an example that uses Core Valeros at tier 4 (starting with the Fighter CD and the Ultimate Combat AOD) multiclassing as a Bard (replacing the Ultimate Combat AOD with the Ultimate Magic AOD).
I agree that this [the two-card increases I proposed] would be feasible - and there is a precedent, although with a Goblin character, Chuffy - Shanker role 7 => 9 in Hand Size. Similarly, there are newish characters that have power feat progression that is not incremental +1d4 => +1d6 => +1d8, but e.g. 1d6 => 1d8 => 2d6 (I would need to check the tables with characters to find the actual example).
Several of the goblin characters have such HAND SIZE power feat increases, including Chuffy, Nok-Nok, Reta, and Tup. And then there is Zova and her unusual odd numbered HAND SIZE options. The area where my suggestion is similar is that power feats would be used. The area where my suggestion is different, however, is that the deck modifications affect the CARDS LIST. It’s slightly different from a card feat, however, in that it doesn’t affect the character’s health. Instead, it adjusts the composition of the character’s deck.
The non-incremental power feats with regard to dice are a different matter altogether. The progressions are still incremental (in most cases), but instead of being based on static bonuses (e.g., Sea Singer Lem has the power: You may recharge a card to add 1d4 to any check by a character at your location.), the dice increase (e.g., Core Lem has a power that ends: …you may recharge a card to add 1d4 .). This means that the character has a higher chance of succeeding at the check, as before, but retains a chance of failure that might not exist with the static bonuses. This was a shift in design principle, not an implementation of exceptions. Keith Richmond discussed it in this blog entry.
All that said, I don’t disagree with your conclusion about two-card deck modification power feats being feasible. And while the question was a follow-on to the suggestion to reduce some of the starting numbers (which may or may not be necessary), it is also applicable if we don’t implement those reductions.
I think that allowing 3 [] 5 spells instead of other boon types for a Sorcerer seems a pretty good fit. Sorcerers have much smaller Spell selection, sometimes even just the 3 at the start of adventure path, so that sounds appropriate.
Counterargument: The numbers I’ve proposed are the starting numbers for those characters at the start of the adventure path. There are far more than three Arcane spells in any of the base sets, decks, and the Core Set, and certainly more than enough for multiple Arcane spellcasters to each have the full complement of spells in their cards lists for the first scenario (okay, a party of five or six spellcasting characters might have problems if they are limited to the spells in the Core Set or a Base Set, but that isn’t likely to happen outside of Guild play and such characters would be drawing on their decks anyways).
While I’m not opposed to reducing the quantities of cards where appropriate, I think we need to take a good look at some number of characters to see how things would fall out and determine if such reductions are even necessary, keeping in mind the considerations I mentioned previously. In this, I would look at likely multiclass combinations such as Core Valeros multiclassing as a bard and CD Harsk multiclassing as a gunslinger rather than unlikely multiclass combinations such as Core Valeros multiclassing as a wizard or CD Siwar multiclassing as a fighter. In this, I’m theorizing that the character will have key skills at d8 or higher. We would also have to consider why the character would choose the multiclass, though we would have to do this without the context of the rest of the party’s composition (that would be a fairly complex analysis and I’m not sure that level of complexity is necessary for this evaluation). We’re also limited in that the current versions of the proposals are definitely going to change because the HAND SIZE power feat increases will be removed, having to find another place for a power feat on each multiclass card. Still, we can conduct a fairly reliable analysis based on the soon-to-be-changed proposals. I see two methods for determining character-multiclass combinations. The first is to look at each character and then identify which multiclass(es), if any, they would be likely to choose. The second is to look at each multiclass and then identify each character who would gain the greatest benefit from it. And to keep things manageable, we could probably pick about 20 using each method, allowing for a cross-section of efficiency levels. We would also want to include instances where characters have the favored cards in their decks already as well as instances where they don’t (since that’s the crux of this issue). Characters who don’t have the favored cards will need some number whereas characters who do might not need as many/any. It will take me some time to go through things to provide my suggested list.
I’ve been working on drafting the changes/additions to the Core Set Rulebook and Pathfinder Adventure Card Society Guide, but I want to ensure that I have the right outcomes in mind. The concept of taking a multiclass card is pretty easy, but that may be easy for me to say since I’m firmly engaged in the process (so if it’s unclear to anyone else, I need to work on clarification and explanation). My focus at this point is modifying a character’s Player Deck when the character becomes multiclassed in Society play. In regular play, players simply add whatever decks they feel are necessary to support the needs of their characters. For example, if you’re using a gunslinger character in an adventure path, especially one other than Skull & Shackles, you’ll need to add some Firearm weapons and Ammunition items (and maybe a few other things) to ensure that your gunslinger character is viable, which means you’ll probably add [some of] the boons from the Gunslinger Class Deck and/or the Ultimate Combat Add-On Deck (and perhaps some boons from the Skull & Shackles AP) to the vault. Society play is a bit different and, aside from loot cards granted by the adventure path, characters are limited to Player Decks with limited sources. So the Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Guide needs to incorporate rules to make multiclassed characters viable via modifying their Player Decks. The rules for this start on page 7 of the guide. Players choose one of the following options for building their player deck for Society play, from the Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Guide 6.2:
Class Deck
Ultimate Add-On Deck
3x adventurer’s packs
Class Deck Ultimate Add-On Deck
Class Deck 2x adventurer’s packs
Ultimate Add-On Deck 1x adventurer’s pack
Allowing characters to multiclass creates interesting design space and introduces certain complications. My instinct, however, is that we need to follow the principle of keeping things simple.
The overall challenge stems from balancing two opposing principles. The first is balance/fairness – ensuring that all characters in Society play have comparably balanced options in choosing how to build their Player Deck, not giving anyone an unfair advantage/disadvantage. The opposing principle is ensuring that players have the flexibility to build characterful decks that allow for their characters to be suitably representative of their class(es) and which allow for sufficient customization for character progression and replayability.
Originally, I thought it would be as simple as adding the character deck appropriate for the multiclass. While three of these classes, the brawler, investigator, and skald don’t have Class Decks with those names, the Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Guide 6.2 provides Class Decks for each of these classes. Similarly, the champion would use the Paladin Class Deck since the paladin has been rolled into the champion class in PFRPG 2e. As an extension to this solution, I figured a character might add an Ultimate Add-On Deck instead of a Class Deck. That creates an outcome where multiclassed characters have far more cards to choose from than their single-class counterparts, however, which seems to be unfair.
My current leaning is that when a character becomes multiclassed, they may rebuild their Player Deck. The end result of this rebuilding must be that their Player Deck must conform to one of the options presented on page 7 of the Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Guide, and characters who use multiclass cards (and only those characters) may also choose either of the following combinations:
Class Deck Class Deck
Ultimate Add-On deck Ultimate Add-On Deck
In addition, the player is free to swap any adventurer’s packs.
Any cards that are removed must be replaced by cards of the same boon type and the same level or lower from the new sources.
Does this work?
Once the outcome is finalized, I can ensure that the modifications to the rulebook and the guide are complete.
First, I really appreciate your analysis of the officially allowed combinations and their relative values. That is extremely helpful.
The basic concept in my head was that a character would use the decks that are associated with their classes. So if someone is playing with any version of Valeros (RotRL, S&S, CD, Core) and decides to take the Bard multiclass card, they would use the Fighter Class Deck and the Bard Class Deck; and if someone is playing with any version of Seoni (RotRL, CD, WotR, Core) and decides to take the Oracle multiclass card, they would use the Sorcerer Class Deck and the Oracle Class Deck.
In the case of characters who come from character decks that support multiple classes (Goblins Burn!, Goblins Fight!, Hell’s Vengeance 1 & 2, Occult Adventures 1 & 2, and Pathfinder Tales), the default deck would be whichever deck it is that includes the character. So if someone is using Urgraz (HV 1) and decides to take the Ranger multiclass card, they would use the Hell’s Vengeance 1 Character Deck and the Ranger Class Deck; and if someone is playing with Chuffy (GF!) and decides to take the Rogue multiclass card, they would use the Goblins Fight! Character Deck and the Rogue Class Deck.
Then there are the characters who are included in the Ultimate Add-On Decks, and each of those decks would be the default for those characters. So if someone is playing with Zova (UW) and decides to take the Cleric multiclass card, they would use the Ultimate Wilderness Add-On Deck and the Cleric Class Deck; and if someone is playing with Hayato (UC) and decides to take the Summoner multiclass card, they would use the Ultimate Combat Add-On Deck and the Summoner Class Deck.
In addition, there are characters from the adventure paths for which there are no Class Decks. Each of these has been assigned one or more decks via the Pathfinder Adventure Society [Guild]. For example, Shardra, the shaman from the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path, has been assigned the Oracle Class Deck; and Jirelle, the swashbuckler from the Skull & Shackles adventure path, has been assigned the Rogue Class Deck. So if either of those characters were to take the Fighter multiclass card, they would use their assigned deck and the Fighter Class Deck.
Lastly, we have the characters for which multiple decks have been allowed. For example, the arcanist Enora appears in both the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path and the Ultimate Magic Add-On Deck. A player using the WotR version of her has been allowed to use the Pathfinder Tales Character Deck -or- the Wizard Class Deck -or- the Ultimate Magic Add-On Deck; so if they were to take the Investigator multiclass card with her, they would use one of those decks and the Ultimate Equipment Add-On Deck, since that deck is the one assigned to Quinn.
The final complication, of course, is the adventurer’s packs.
At this point, the only class that needs an Ultimate Add-On Deck to support being multiclassed [assuming my basic concept is sound] is the investigator. While the possibility to develop multiclass cards for additional classes remains, I don't think that any of the classes covered in the Ultimate Add-On Decks remain as classes in PFRPG 2e, so they're not high on the priority list (if they're on the list at all). So we could limit the 2x Ultimate Add-On Deck combination to those characters in those decks (and the WotR version of Enora, too, I suppose) if they multiclass as investigators.
Of course, it might be easier to just leave the Ultimate Add-On Deck Ultimate Add-On Deck combination out.
You probably weren’t wondering about the 6-day delay between ’s previous post and my reply. Or maybe you're not ;) . Regardless, I figured it would be worth explaining. As I said previously, Jenceslav’s analysis of the relative source values was very helpful, prompting me to attempt a more in-depth analysis of each of the various sources. This led to the creation of a spreadsheet that included basic data on each source and the basic composition of cards within based on boon type and level. A big shout out to anyone and everyone involved in editing the PACG Wiki as that info saved me the trouble of having to manually go through each source to collect the data. Without the data on the wiki, I would probably still be going through decks.
All the numbers below assume that (a) the original compilers of the data were accurate, and (more importantly) (b) I transcribed the data from the wiki to the spreadsheet correctly and the formulas on my spreadsheet are correct. I’ll assume that any errors stem from (b).
From the perspective of numbers, the adventurer’s packs are roughly comparable to both the class/character decks and the ultimate add-on decks. The smallest adventurer’s pack is the Divine pack at 52 cards, while the largest packs are Alchemy and Arcane at 54 cards each. The other packs each consist of 53 cards. So the smallest possible combination of 2 packs is 105 cards and the largest possible such combination is 108 cards; and the smallest combination of 3 packs is 154 cards and the largest possible such combination is 161 cards.
In terms of the class/character decks and the ultimate add-on decks, I didn’t include the character cards, token cards, role cards, or support cards (which include cohorts). It could probably be argued that the cohorts should have been included and I’m working on a variation of this analysis that does include them. I’m saving those for a more detailed analysis that includes the traits of cards (more on that in a bit). We also have the complication of the earliest class decks including 4 characters each, taking 12 cards out of the mix, while the later class/character decks only include 3 characters each, taking only 9 cards out of the mix. Most of the ultimate add-on decks include only 1 character, taking only 3 cards out of the mix, with the Ultimate Intrigue Add-On Deck has Aric/The Red Raven, a single character with 2 character cards, 1 role card, and 2 token cards. The smallest of the class/character decks is the Witch Class Deck, at 94 cards. The reason for that is the number of cohorts (which skews things). The next smallest is the Hunter Class Deck, at 95 cards. This is another deck that has a number of cohorts that skew things. The next smallest are the Bard, Cleric, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Summoner, Wizard, and Pathfinder Tales class/character decks, each clocking in at 97 cards. Most of those are among the early class decks with 4 characters each, while the Summoner and Pathfinder Tales class/character decks are later and include only 3 characters each, but each of those includes support cards (the Summoner CD has cohorts and the Pathfinder Tales CD has the Devil Form cards). Each of the ultimate add-on decks, meanwhile, clocks in at 104+ cards, the smallest being Intrigue at 104 cards due to the Aric/Red Raven issue, with Combat clocking in at 105 (Hayato has his cohort, Jinfu), and the others each clocking in at 106 cards. So in the class/character/ultimate add-on decks we see the smallest at 94 cards and the largest at 106 cards, a 12-card difference. If we were to include the cohorts (across all of these decks), we would see the smallest at 97 cards (the earliest decks with 4 characters each) and the largest at 106 cards – a 9-card difference.
What complicates all of the deck analyses, and which I didn’t really factor in, was the usability of each card for each character. With the initial construct of a character being limited to a single deck (i.e., before there were ultimate add-on decks or adventurer’s packs), each deck had to allow for each character to be viable throughout both role progressions and different feat choices. This was the impetus for switching from 4 characters down to 3 characters in the class/character decks – reducing the requirements. An easy example of this principle is the Fighter Class Deck. Like the other characters, Flenta is a fighter, but she’s one that pretends to be a wizard and has some powers that represent her pretended use of Arcane magic. This necessitates the inclusion of spells that most of the other characters do not need (Vika can have up to 1 spell); and with a cards list of 3-5 spells, and roles with very different foci, there are 13 spells that are inapplicable to 2 out of the 4 characters in that deck. The Ultimate Combat Add-On Deck is another story, in this case focusing more on the traits of boons rather than the types of boons. Looking solely at the weapons, different characters find certain types more useful based on their traits. The deck itself supports the broad range of combat, meaning there are boons that support each of the different types of weapon- and weaponless (non-spell) combat. So there are Melee weapons that are useful to characters like Valeros and Alain, Ranged weapons that are useful to characters like Harsk and Imrijka, Firearm weapons that are useful to the gunslingers, Finesse weapons that are useful to characters like Jirelle and Lesath, etc. Characters might make use of the broad range of weapons, but those weapons will be far less useful and will be unlikely to be retained in their player decks. Similarly, the other boons within that deck will be more or less useful to different characters.
The character decks are another story as they typically include characters of 3 different classes; and while there might be broad similarities such as all the Goblins Fight! Characters being focused on non-spell combat, each of these decks tends to be a bit more limited in terms of the cards that players will focus on for each of the characters.
The ultimate add-on decks, meanwhile, are interesting in that each needs to support the included character and must be general enough to support the overall concept of the deck. The Ultimate Magic Add-On Deck, for example, must support the arcanist, Enora, through both of her roles and a variety of feat progressions; but it must also support magic in general for a large swath of characters. So while the spells in the Cleric Class Deck are all Divine spells that any of the clerics can use, the spells in the Ultimate Magic Add-On Deck may be either Arcane, Divine, or both. The bards can make great use of the full range of spells in that deck, but most other spellcasting characters will find certain spells to be of little/no use except for one time use.
The concept of multiclassed characters changes the dynamic a bit. While any class deck will generally be optimized for the corresponding class and character decks will provide limited support for each of the included classes, the ultimate add-on decks become much more useful for multiclassed characters. If Harsk multiclasses as a gunslinger, the Ultimate Combat Add-On Deck becomes much more useful for him.
It was this latter realization that forced me to re-think allowing two ultimate add-on decks, either imposing limits or removing that combination altogether. The Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Guide 6.2 already includes a provision for support cards such as cohorts and devil forms on page 7. What I’m unclear on is limitations for which sources can be used for characters. I can see two different possible interpretations. The first is that a character must use the deck in which they are included or which corresponds to them by class or if another version of the character is in that deck (e.g., MM Mavaro using Occult Adventures 2 since there is a Mavaro included in that character deck). In this instance, the player can decide to use just the Occult Adventures 2 Character Deck, or supplement it with one of the ultimate add-on decks or two of the adventurer’s packs). The second interpretation is that a character may use any deck the player finds useful, supplementing that with other sources based on the allowed combinations. Support for the first interpretation is the sidebar on page 7 which defines which deck to use for certain characters. Support for the second interpretation is the exclusion of a number of characters for which there are no class/character decks (e.g., S&S Jirelle and WotR Crowe). Each of the characters for which there was no corresponding deck had a defined deck at one time, but I’ve been unable to find either the discussion forum post in which such guidance was given and I didn’t have the forethought to keep all the obsolete versions of the Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Guide. I do, however, have my own form that was based on that guidance, and it also allowed some supported characters to use alternate decks (omitting those characters that are listed in the sidebar in the current guide):
Alain (WotR) – Paladin Class Deck
Arueshalae (WotR) – Rogue Class Deck
Crowe (WotR) – Magus Class Deck
Darago (Wizard CD) – Hell’s Vengeance 2 Character Deck
Enora (WotR) – Pathfinder Tales Character Deck -OR- Wizard Class Deck -OR- Ultimage Magic Add-On Deck
Estra (MM) – Occult Adventures 1 Character Deck -OR- Oracle Class Deck
Fumbus (Core) – Alchemist Class Deck -OR- Goblins Burn! Character Deck
Jirelle (S&S) – Rogue Class Deck
Lem (Bard CD) – Occult Adventures 1 Character Deck
Lem (RotR) – Occult Adventures 1 Character Deck
Lem (S&S) – Occult Adventures 1 Character Deck
Mavaro (MM) – Alchemist Class Deck -OR- Bard Class Deck -OR- Inquisitor Class Deck -OR- Magus Class Deck -OR- Occult Adventures 2 Character Deck
Meligaster (Occult Adventures 1 CD) – Bard Class Deck
Merisiel (Core) – Rogue Class Deck -OR- Ultimate Equipment Character Deck
Ostog (Barbarian CD) – Monk Class Deck
Shardra (WotR) – Oracle Class Deck
Yoon (MM) – Occult Adventures 2 Character Deck
Zadim (MM) – Inquisitor Class Deck -OR- Rogue Class Deck
To be honest, some of that may be my own creation, but I’m pretty sure that most/all of it came from some more authoritative source. If you have a link to that source, especially if there is some statement about the present applicability of that guidance, it would be most appreciated. The fact that deck choice was rigidly defined at some point and those restrictions are no longer defined, especially since the adventurer’s packs have been introduced and players can simply opt to take 3 adventurer’s packs instead of a defined deck, would seem to indicate that the restrictions are no longer in place and players have much more agency. In that case, however, why is there then a need to define decks for other characters? In this, the use of “can” implies a restriction rather than the more permissive “may” (see the sidebar on page 7 of the guide).
In the end, however, since the multiclass concept is pure house rules, I’m inclined to be more permissive, not defining deck choices that limit player agency. In this, while I see adding the option for two class/character decks, each supporting one of the character’s classes, I don’t think allowing two ultimate add-on decks is necessary.
Anyhoo, that is a rather long-winded explanation for the decision-making process I went through as a result of Jenceslav’s input.
So at this point, in the interest of keeping things simple, my plan is to add the option for two class/character decks while not allowing two ultimate add-on decks in the allowed combinations for player deck sources. I don’t think it’s necessary to define any guidance for which class/character decks the player may choose, giving players the agency to choose any class/character decks they think would be useful for representing the multiclassed character.
All that said, it might be interesting to [one day] conduct a more thorough analysis of the relative usability of each card for each character in each of the deck sources to attempt to develop an aggregate rating for the relative value of each source. That’s not something I have any intent to do now as it would probably just be an intellectual exercise.
So all of this leaves us pretty much where we were when I posted my previous reply last night, though narrowing from two options down to one. If anyone feels strongly that the other option should be considered, I’m open to discussion. In the meantime, I’m going to develop my recommended rulebook and guide changes/additions based on adding only the Class Deck Class Deck combination (the guide including character decks under class decks for the purpose of building player decks). Hopefully I’ll have those recommendations posted soon, unless someone wants to explore allowing two ultimate add-on decks as one of the possible combinations.
I’m focusing on the general multiclass rules for now. The multiclass cards serve as an add-on to the concept of roles, modifying various character elements to include: powers and power feats, traits (the class), favored cards, and deck list. Where these elements are mentioned in either the Core Set Rulebook or the Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Guide, we need to evaluate where the multiclass cards modify the existing rules/guidance and make the appropriate changes.
Note that while composing this post, I realized that my previous recommendations for each of the multiclass cards used “Cards List” instead of “Deck List” (that was a change in the Core Set update), so I’m fixing all of those now.
My proposal for the location of the general rules includes:
1) An addition to the section on how to Draw Starting Hands on page 5.
2) An addition to Ending a Scenario, Adventure, or Adventure Path under After the Scenario on page 16.
3) An addition to Rebuilding section on page 17.
4) A new strategy box on page 18.
5) Two additions to the RULES: FEATS box on page 19.
6) An addition in the Card Types section starting on page 19 .
7) An addition to the guidance for including a Cohort on page 21.
Assuming these suggestions are acceptable, here are my first stabs at each:
This would go on page 5, modifying the existing rule to the following (changes marked in ):
Draw Starting Hands: The front of your character lists a hand size; draw that number of cards from your deck. The back of your character lists your favored card; if it gives you a choice, choose 1 for the scenario before drawing. If you didn’t draw at least matching card, set aside your hand and draw again, repeating as needed until your hand contains at least 1 favored card. If you set aside enough cards that you can’t draw up to your full hand size, draw all the remaining cards, then shuffle the set-aside cards into your deck and draw the rest of your hand. Once you have a full hand that includes your favored card, shuffle the set-aside cards back into your deck.
This would go on page 16 after the fourth paragraph (the one that starts “First, if any character is dead…”) and before the fifth paragraph (the one that starts “Next, if you won…”).
If you have not begun Adventure 5, characters may take multiclass cards (see Multiclass Cards on page ). Multiple characters may take the same multiclass card, if desired.
The # is a placeholder for whatever page we decide the Card Types section entry should be placed on.
This would be inserted on page 17 after the second paragraph (the one that starts “If you can’t construct a valid deck…”) and before the third paragraph (the one that starts “If you want to start a new character…”), becoming the new third paragraph.
If you want your character to take a multiclass card, you may do so during rebuilding before deciding to spend a hero point. A character may have no more than one multiclass card, and may only take such a card prior to starting Adventure 5. Each multiclass card lists additional restrictions/requirements. You may add cards from character decks, ultimate add-on decks, and other adventure paths to the vault if necessary to support a multiclass card (e.g., a character taking the Gunslinger multiclass card may need Firearm weapons and other boons).
This should fit on page 18, right below the strategy box about Should you adjust the challenge?
STRATEGY: SHOULD YOU TAKE A MULTICLASS CARD?
The best time to take a multiclass card is when you earn a hero point and plan to spend it to gain a power feat. You will have to choose a power feat on the multiclass card unless it is your first power feat, in which case you may choose a power feat on either your character card or your multiclass card. The character won’t gain any powers simply from taking a multiclass card, and their Favored Card is likely to be modified as a result of taking the multiclass card, so you will likely spend the hero point to gain a benefit of the new class.
The most likely reason for a character to take a multiclass card is that there are gaps in the party’s skills and powers and those gaps cannot or will not be filled by an additional character or character advancement. Alternately, you may desire to pursue a non-standard progression for a character. The tradeoff is that the character will not be able to spend all their power feat hero points on role powers.
If your multiclass card is banished, you regain it at the start of the next scenario.
Modifying the first sentence of the Power Feats rules box on page 19 (changes in ):
Character and role cards include a number of checkboxes called feats.
Adding a sentence to the last paragraph:
Free multiclass sheets are posted online at .
The URL will probably be to this discussion, providing a single index with links to various locations such as Pathfinder Infinite, Drive Thru Cards, and the Board Game Geek (i.e., where I upload the sheets).
The easiest place to insert this would be on page 23, but there may be a more logical place for it, such is immediately preceding or following the Roles card (page 20) or immediately preceding or following Support Cards (page 21/22). I favor the former since I see the multiclass card as an addition to the stable of cards directly relating to the characters (i.e., character, token, and role), but that’s not a hill I’ll die on.
Multiclass Cards
Each character may take up to one multiclass card, allowing the character to progress in a second class in addition to the class listed on their character card. Taking a multiclass card may be done during rebuilding after completing any scenario before starting Adventure 5. A character may not take a multiclass card that confers the same class trait as that which is on their character card, and some multiclass cards list other restrictions or requirements.
A multiclass card provides additional power feats that a character may select in addition to those that appear on their character card and role card. When you gain power feats, you may choose them from your character/role card or your multiclass card. If the number of power feats checked on your multiclass card is less than half the number of power feats checked on your character/role card, the next power feat you select must be on the multiclass card. A character may never have more than 12 power feat boxes checked in total on their role card and multiclass card.
This would be added to the description of cohort cards on page 21, modifying the first paragraph to the following (addition in ):
Cohort: These are companions that some characters get at the start of a scenario. (The Core Set does not include any characters that use cohorts; they can be found in certain class decks and Adventure Paths.) If the back of your character lists a cohort at the bottom of your deck list , after you draw your starting hand, add your cohort to it.
My proposal for the location of the society guide rules includes:
1) Adding Appendix 5: Multiclass Characters.
2) Modifying the section about BUILDING YOUR PLAYER DECK on page 7.
3) Modifying the section telling you how to Build Your Own Character under STARTING A HIGHER-TIER CHARACTER on page 8.
4) Adding guidance for AFTER THE SCENARIO on page 10.
5) Modifying the section describing how to Rebuild Your Deck on page 11.
Assuming these suggestions are acceptable, here are my first stabs at each:
In a living rulebook setup, this will appear on page 15 (pushing all content that currently appears starting on page 15 back). If this is added as an addendum (which is most likely at this point), this will simply be a downloadable file that is appended to the Guide.
If your character takes a multiclass card, you may modify the sources of your Player Deck. Taking a multiclass card also creates one new combination if you wish to mix and match sources for your player deck: two Class Decks. You may replace any/all of the sources in your existing Player Deck to create a new Player Deck that meets the allowed combinations. This will result in removing all cards from the removed source(s) and replacing them with cards from the new source(s). In addition, you may remove cards from sources that you are retaining and replace them with cards from new sources. All replacement cards must be of the same type and the same level or lower as the cards they replace. Your new Player Deck must include all required cards, even if those cards aren’t included in the sources you have chosen (e.g., if you decide that Hayato will multiclass as a bard and decide to remove the Ultimate Combat Add-On Deck from your Player Deck sources, you must still include the cohort Jinfu from that deck).
This will be followed by an example, which I’m working on.
This bullet would be added after the second bullet in the section on BUILDING YOUR PLAYER DECK on page 7:
Create a Player Deck and choose a character as described on page 7. To build your character’s deck, choose cards that have a level at least 2 lower than the # of the adventure you’re about to play. Your character can check a number of feat boxes of each type equal to their Tier –2. If your character is Tier 5 or higher, also select a role for your character.
This change could actually be very complicated, providing guidance on determing exactly when the multiclass card is taken for the purpose of selecting power feats.
Modify this paragraph as follows (addition in text):
If your character takes a multiclass card, you may modify the sources of your Player Deck. See Appendix 5 on page for details.
This would go after the Return from Death paragraph and before the Earn Rewards paragraph:
Multiclass. Any character who has not yet reached Tier 5 and who does not already have a multiclass card may take a multiclass card at this time.
This would be added after the last sentence in the first paragraph (the one ending “…choose that card instead.”) on page 11:
If your character takes a multiclass card after the scenario, you may remove cards and replace them with cards from another source. See Appendix 5 on page for details.
The # will be the page on which Appendix 5 appears. As a simple addendum to the Guide, we would omit the “on page #” portion of this line.
If you think that I’ve missed any areas, recommended an addition/change that isn’t necessary, or need to clarify/tighten wording, please let me know.
Now we’re going to examine each multiclass card individually, going in alphabetical order. To avoid having to repeat myself, the basic methodology I’ve used in developing these initial proposals is described below.
Any iconic character presented in either the Core Set or Curse of the Crimson Throne serves as the model for the corresponding multiclass card. In cases where the class isn’t represented by an iconic character in the Core Set/Curse of the Crimson Throne, I’ve used the iconic character from the corresponding character deck as the model. Other versions of the iconic characters are considered, as are other characters of the same class, though I’ve generally avoided the goblins since they tend to incorporate lovable goblin silliness. The Hell’s Vengeance character decks often offer characters whose powers are very similar to their “good” counterparts, but they tend to incorporate “evil” aspects such as playing other characters’ cards to achieve the effects (actually, they tend to allow for any characters’ cards to be used, including their own, but the fact that they can use someone else’s card is why they’re viewed as “evil”). In addition, they often have powers related to the Corrupted trait, another “evil” element. For the most part, though, they incorporate powers that are very similar to their “good” counterparts.
Each multiclass card allows for 10 power feats. In most cases, players will select fewer power feats on their multiclass card and more on their role card, but I don’t want to limit player agency by allowing for too few multiclass power feats. While most adventure paths will only allow for six or seven power feats total, Wrath of the Righteous allows for 11 or more (depending on one scenario). Since the role cards are limited to 12 power feats, I’ve incorporated the limit for 12 total power feats between the character’s role and multiclass cards. Realistically, we might consider increasing the total number of power feats on the multiclass cards to 12 since it’s possible for a character to multiclass right away and to take all 12 power feats on their multiclass card. I don’t know why anyone would want to do that (I certainly wouldn’t), but it’s worth considering. Personally, I think 10 is a good number, but if someone thinks we should consider increasing the number, I’m open to discussion.
The HAND SIZE power feats that were included previously will be removed. These cards were initially conceived as alternatives to role cards, but have been re-conceived as additions to the role cards. The HAND SIZE power feats, then, are unnecessary. It's worth noting, however, that this creates an interesting dynamic. A fighter character who multiclasses as a wizard will typically have a smaller hand size than a wizard who multiclasses as a fighter, even though the two characters may share some powers in common (though their skills will be the real discriminators).
Each multiclass card confers the corresponding class trait (e.g., the Swashbuckler multiclass card confers the Swashbuckler trait).
The character’s FAVORED CARD (on their base character card) is modified to include the favored card(s) of the multiclass, based upon the iconic character’s favored card entry. There are a few instances where this changes from the iconic character, becoming more general. Those will be explained/discussed in the relevant instances.
In cases where a cohort is intrinsic to the character, guidance is also provided for the addition of a cohort to the character’s DECK LIST. The theoretical construct is that the class deck corresponding to the multiclass is available so players can use the appropriate cohort(s) (and other boons) without modification. In regular play, appropriate boons can be added to the vault; and in Society play, the appropriate deck can be incorporated into the character’s [rebuilt] Player Deck or the required cards from that deck can be used (if the corresponding deck isn’t incorporated into the Player Deck). The three classes for which cohorts are required are the magus, summoner, and witch. We may add other classes such as the cavalier and samurai later, and those iconic characters each have cohorts, but we’ll probably have to modify those (e.g., instead of taking Donahan for a cavalier or Jinfu for a samurai, we might use a more generic Mount ally).
In the vast majority of cases, the powers are easily identifiable from the base character card for the iconic character. Where the base powers usually don’t have a starting cost (i.e., they are “free” when you start playing the character), each power requires the use of a power feat, so multiclassed characters will take considerable time to reach the potency of the corresponding iconic characters in their new class. This also allows players to tailor their power feats to the needs of the character without duplicating powers they may possess in their original class.
The leading power(s) for each multiclass card are then based on proficiencies, skills, and cards associated with the new class, generally providing them in that order (and omitting any that don’t apply). Such skills are typically at +2, representing an “average” member of that class (vice +3, which would represent the most potent members of the class, +1 for weaker members, and +0 for those odd cases). The deck modifications allow a character to substitute two or three (usually three) boon types from their DECK LIST to get the new card type(s). In most cases, these are based on the boon types of which the iconic character has the fewest, or they may be “opposites” (e.g., I consider weapons and spells to be opposites). Also, blessings are usually included as one of the options. For example, Core Valeros has 0 spells and 2 items, so a character taking the Fighter multiclass card and either of the “weapon” powers (Melee or Ranged) can substitute weapons for either spells, items, or blessings in their deck (I did something different for armors, but I’ll go over that in the discussion on the Fighter multiclass card). In most cases, the number of cards in the deck modification is based on the number that the iconic character has. While some characters might have such boons in their DECK LIST, there are many cases where a character might have none, so it’s important to ensure that they are allowed to take enough of those boons to be credible in the class. And since these numbers are maximums, characters can always take fewer of those boons.
In some cases, there are other skills or proficiencies associated with the class which I couldn’t/didn’t build into the skill/proficiency/deck modification powers. In general, I tried to include the skills and class proficiencies with relevant powers – if a character of that class would need that skill/proficiency for the power to be usable, it was incorporated. For example, the alchemist naturally needs the Alchemical proficiency. Fumbus has two base powers that are concerned with the Alchemical trait. The first power doesn’t require that the alchemist have the Alchemical proficiency, whereas the second does, so the Alchemical proficiency was incorporated into the second power on the Alchemist Multiclass card. In cases where there were skills/proficiencies that didn’t obviously associated themselves with a power, I tried to include two or three together as a single power where possible. For example, the Cleric Multiclass card includes the power □ Gain the skills Fortitude: Constitution +2 and Perception: Wisdom +2. There were a few cases where there was a single skill or proficiency that didn’t inherently associate with a power, and those are the only times where a power only conferred one skill/proficiency (I’ve avoided this whenever possible, however, as those will be less attractive uses of power feats).
Where a power, or aspects of it, seem to be reflective more of the character and not of the class, I’ve either omitted the power or made it more generic. For example, Core Valeros has “SWORD WEAPON” as his FAVORED CARD. Not all fighters focus on the use of swords, however, with some preferring polearms, others bludgeoning weapons, etc. So the Fighter multiclass card uses “WEAPON” as the FAVORED CARD. Likewise, Core Seoni has a power that allows her to reduce certain types of damage by 1. That power seems to be a Seoni thing and not a sorcerer thing, so it has been omitted (forcing me to look elsewhere for suitable sorcerer powers).
When a multiclass card doesn’t have 10 power feat boxes derived from the baseline character, the skill/proficiency/deck modification power(s) might include a power feat to increase the number of such cards the character may include in their deck. I’ve done this sparingly as many characters don’t need power feats to take the cards necessary for their multiclass.
When there still aren’t 10 power feat boxes, progressions on role cards might be used, especially where identical/similar progressions are present on both roles or when one role seems to reflect a more generic type of that class. When doing this, I’ve generally used the less potent version. Alternatively, the other characters of that class might provide ideas for powers/progressions.
In addition, I consulted PFRPG 2e rulebooks to determine which powers seem to be the most representative of the class (or to develop such powers, as in the oracle which we’ll discuss later).
There are a few cases where I think it’s possible to create a little more customization, using the iconic character as a foundation while making the multiclass a little more representative of the class as it is presented in PFRPG 2e. Each of those cases will be discussed when we get to the relevant multiclass cards. In some cases, this might require a little creativity on the card; in others, it might require a support card for the class. I’ve taken to calling this the “RPGification of PACG,” though the abstractions of PACG are preserved.
Something I’ve considered while working on this project is that these multiclass cards allow for some of the custom character ideas that I’ve come up with over the years. For example, in this topic I was working on “non-gunslinger gunslingers.” Each of the characters I worked on in that project was multiclassed as a something-gunslinger. The first was a ranger-gunslinger, the second was an inquisitor-gunslinger (with Pitborn powers, too), and the third was a barbarian-gunslinger (with Goblin silliness, too). While those characters can’t be exactly duplicated via these rules, the core principles of each can be represented to the point where the custom characters might be unnecessary. There are probably other custom characters that I [and others] have come up with over the years who might be similarly represented via these multiclass cards (though there are doubtless many who are far too distinctive to be so represented).
Now that the basic methodology has been provided, the discussion about the alchemist multiclass card will appear shortly.
The alchemist provides us with a challenge in that the iconic alchemist during PACG’s run was the elf Damiel, with the goblin Fumbus replacing him in the transition to Core/PFRPG 2e. The proposal for the Alchemist multiclass card is firmly based on Core Fumbus, but looks to CD Damiel for other cues:
FAVORED CARD: Alchemical Item or Attack Spell
SKILLS: Disable, Ranged, Craft, Arcane
HAND SIZE: 6 □ 7 □ 8
PROFICIENCIES: Alchemical, □ Arcane
POWERS:
On a local combat check (□ or a local check to defeat an Obstacle or Trap barrier), you may discard a card (□ or recharge an Alchemical or Attack card) to add 1d4 (□ 1d6) and the Acid, Fire, or Poison trait.
During recovery, when you would banish an Alchemical boon or an Arcane Attack spell, you may discard it instead. (□ Then you may recharge a new Arcane Attack spell whose level is 0.)
□ On your check that invokes Acid, Fire, or Poison, add 1d6 (□ 1d8).
□ At the end of your exploration, draw a card.
□ At the end of your turn, if there are more cards in your discards than in your deck, you may bury a random (□ or any) card from your discards to heal 1d4 cards.
Multiple alchemists are in the classic product line:
Cogsnap (Alchemist Class Deck)
Damiel (Alchemist Class Deck)
Damiel (Skull & Shackles)
Damiel (Mummy’s Mask)
Mogmurch (Goblins Burn! Character Deck)
Mother Myrtle (Alchemist Class Deck)
Fumbus is the iconic alchemist and should serve as the basic example of an alchemist’s skills, powers, and cards. He’s also a goblin, however, so there may be some silliness that needs to be excised. As the prior iconic alchemist, Damiel, especially his CD version, also serves as an example. It looks like some of Cogsnap’s character was cooked into Fumbus. Mother Myrtle provides an interesting counter. Where the other alchemists appear to be focused on throwing things that go boom, Mother Myrtle is more focused on plants and healing. Her powers bear some similarities with the other alchemists, and those have helped shape the below proposal. Mogmurch brings goblin twists to the alchemist class.
Here’s a breakdown of the current proposal for the Alchemist multiclass card:
You gain the Alchemist trait. Add “OR ALCHEMICAL ITEM” to your FAVORED CARD.
□ Gain the skill Craft: Intelligence +2. You are proficient with Alchemical. During recovery, when you would banish an Alchemical boon or an Arcane Attack spell, you may discard it instead. (□ Then you may recharge a new Alchemical item whose level is 0.) When rebuilding, you may treat up to 6 (□ 7) Alchemical items as weapons, armors, or allies.
□ Gain the skill Arcane: Intelligence +1. You are proficient with Arcane. When rebuilding, you may treat up to 2 Attack spells as weapons, armors, or allies.
□ On a local combat check (□ or a local check to defeat an Obstacle or Trap barrier), you may discard a card (□ or recharge an Alchemical or Attack card) to add 1d4 and the Acid, Fire, or Poison trait.
□ Gain the skills Disable: Dexterity +1 and Ranged: Dexterity +1.
□ On your check that invokes Acid, Fire, or Poison, add 1d6 (□ 1d8).
I replaced the Hand Size power feat with the 1d8 power feat in the last power. An alternative I considered was to add a 1d6 power feat to the first power. I opted for the 1d8 power feat instead because I’m trying to limit each power to a total of three feat boxes, including the first. The intent there is to encourage a bit more variety. Practically speaking, since the feat boxes in the first power aren’t sequential (i.e., aside from having to choose the first one in order to get the power in the first place, you can take any of the following power feats without having to take any of the others first), the 1d6 power feat isn’t really a problem.
That's great information. Thanks!
I have all the Society scenarios/adventures/adventure paths, but I didn't even think to look at those [imagine me face-palming myself].
Info on Arueshalae can be seen here (blog entry from ).
And now it’s time for the barbarian. The proposal for the Barbarian multiclass card is firmly based on Core Amiri:
FAVORED CARD: Melee Weapon
SKILLS: Melee, Fortitude, Survival
HAND SIZE: 4 □ 5
PROFICIENCIES: Weapon, □ Armor
POWERS:
On your Strength check or your check against a monster, you may bury a card from your hand (□ or discards) to add your Fortitude skill.
Closing your location does not prevent you from exploring (□ and after you close your location, you may draw a card).
At the end of your turn, you may move; any local characters may move with you.
Multiple barbarians are in the classic product line:
Amiri (Rise of the Runelords)
Amiri (Barbarian Class Deck)
Brielle (Barbarian Class Deck)
Ostog (Barbarian Class Deck)
Amiri is the iconic barbarian and should serve as the basic example of a barbarian’s skills, powers, and cards. When Core Amiri is insufficient, my first recourse is CD Amiri, then the RotRL version of Amiri.
Here’s a breakdown of the current proposal for the Barbarian multiclass card:
You gain the Barbarian trait. Add “OR MELEE WEAPON” to your FAVORED CARD.
□ Gain the skill Melee: Strength +2 and you are proficient with Melee weapons. When rebuilding, you may treat up to 4 Melee weapons as spells, armors, or blessings.
□ You are proficient with Armor. When rebuilding, you may treat up to 2 armors as spells, items, or allies.
□ Gain the skill Fortitude: Constitution +1. On your Strength check or your check against a monster, you may bury a card from your hand (□ or discards) to add your Fortitude skill.
□ Closing your location does not prevent you from exploring (□ and after you close your location, you may draw a card)(□ and you may heal a weapon).
□ Gain the skill Survival: Wisdom +2. At the end of your turn, you may move (□ then examine the top card of your location); any local characters may move with you.
□ On your Melee combat check, you may reload a weapon to add its level.
In general, I’ve been removing the increases to the deck modifications in this round of recommendations. In many cases, characters already have these boons in their deck lists. Since the numbers of such cards “gained” equals the starting level of the base characters’ deck lists, these should be sufficient in the majority of cases to support character viability. So removing the increase in Melee weapons from 4 to 5 and removing the Hand Size power feat with the power feat left 2 power feats. I used these to incorporate powers from each of Core Amiri’s roles.
The first was the power feat to examine the top card of your location after moving (from the Resistance Fighter role) and the second was reloading a weapon to add its level to your Melee combat check from her Smashmouth role (without the power feat to apply the power to another local character’s Melee combat check).