Can Incorporeal creatures with Ghost Touch weapons interact with the surroundings?

[Eru_Iluvatar]

According to the official rules, are Incorporeal creatures with Ghost Touch weapons, by using them, able to:
1) hit and/or move tiny objects?
2) do Combat Manouvers against corporeal creatures?
3) interact in other ways with the surroundings?

If the answer to one or more questions is "yes":
A) which actions are allowed?
B) which limits do they abide?
C) which ability scores do they use?

I need to understand their behaviour without the Amulet of Grasping Souls, that was not included in the first manuals.

Thank you all in advance for your official clarifications.

[glass]

The only ability that ghost touch confers on incorporeal creatures is to pick it up, move it around, and attack with it. Hitting objects is an attack, and so is a Combat Manoeuvre, so they can do those (provided it is Combat Manoeuvre you can normally do with a weapon). So that covers 2 and part of 1.

As for 3 and the other part of 1 (moving small objects around without attacking them), that depends on how much weight the GM puts on "Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal." Personally I would allow them to do anything that a corporeal creature count reasonably do with their sword, but conversely would not allow then to, for example, take it through walls. So that covers A and B (albeit somewhat vaguely).

C at least has a fairly concrete answer - the description of the Incorporeal quality states "It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB."

EDIT: I am not sure what you mean by the last line. PF1 is long out of print; the only "official word" you're likely to get at this point is what was printed in the books back then. I cannot even find the PF1 FAQ any more! (Does it still exist somewhere?)

[Pizza Lord]

Ghost Touch

Ghost Touch wrote:

A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature’s 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal. This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons and ammunition.

A ghost touch item is fully interactable to an incorporeal creature. It counts as both corporeal and incorporeal as needed (read as: benefits the user, but it's GM discretion for some cases).

An incorporeal creature holding a sword can strike a corporeal creature and vice versa with no trouble. An incorporeal creature could use a tripping ghost touch weapon on a corporeal creature (and technically vice versa, but incorporeal creatures tend to be immune to those because they float, but it's possible a certain kind could be.)

A ghost touch weapon wielded by an incorporeal creature's still appears to bypass natural armor or shield as an incorporeal attack, it just deals full damage (not 50%, like if the ghost had died with a magical weapon and was manifested with a ghostly copy).

As for movement, I don't believe it hinders the wielder, it's incorporeal as needed for an incorporeal creature. So a ghost could move into a wall or floor and not have it bang the stone. I wouldn't let them hit a creature without having the weapon outside of the solid object or attack a wall or floor from inside it while incorporeal, and I wouldn't let a corporeal creature push it through a wall like it was incorporeal if they weren't, but other GMs may feel different on that part.

[I grok do u]

glass wrote:

...

EDIT: I am not sure what you mean by the last line. PF1 is long out of print; the only "official word" you're likely to get at this point is what was printed in the books back then. I cannot even find the PF1 FAQ any more! (Does it still exist somewhere?)

It can be a bit difficult to find without a link: PF1 FAQ

[Azothath]

refer to Actions in Combat

[Maxtrallallà Misteriosaidentità]

Pizza Lord wrote:

A ghost touch weapon wielded by an incorporeal creature's still appears to bypass natural armor or shield as an incorporeal attack.

Are you sure? Where can I check it?

[Diego Rossi]

Maxtrallallà Misteriosaidentità wrote:

Pizza Lord wrote:

A ghost touch weapon wielded by an incorporeal creature's still appears to bypass natural armor or shield as an incorporeal attack.

Are you sure? Where can I check it?

This seems the thing that gets nearest to saying that:

Ghost tough wrote:

A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.

[Maxtrallallà Misteriosaidentità]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Are you sure? Where can I check it?

This seems the thing that gets nearest to saying that:

Ghost tough wrote:

A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal.

But this is always true for a ghost touch weapon: it always "counts as both corporeal and incorporeal". Therefore, a ghost touch weapon "would bypass natural armor or shield as an incorporeal attack" even if used by a corporeal creature.

My interpretation is that a ghost touch weapon is considered corporeal against corporeal foes (meaning it is not a touch attack), but incorporeal against incorporeal foes.

What's your take on this?

[Diego Rossi]

Ghost wrote:

When a ghost is created, it retains incorporeal “copies” of any items that it particularly valued in life (provided the originals are not in another creature’s possession). The equipment works normally for the ghost but passes harmlessly through material objects or creatures. A weapon of +1 or better magical enhancement, however, can harm material creatures, but any such attack deals only half as much damage (50%) unless it is a ghost touch weapon. A ghost can use shields or armor only if they have the ghost touch quality.

Incorporeal, as a rule term, is applied only to creatures (Incorporeal subtype and Incorporeal (Ex) Universal Monster Rule). When applied to an item, problems ensue.

My interpretation is that, if the weapon or armor is one of the "copies", it counts as incorporeal for bypassing armor and mowing through walls. When it is a physical object that the ghost has "borrowed" from a fallen opponent, it counts as corporeal when making an attack or moving through a wall.

There is the further problem that incorporeal creatures have a Strength score of "-", without the caveat that a score of "-" counts as 10 for DC and other factors. With a score of "-", they can't lift or use a physical object without using magic. If they are using magic to affect an object (Telekinesis, as an example), you use the rules of that kind of magic.

When I am the GM, I threatincorporeal creatures as they had that caveat, when it matters.

BTW, RAW incorporeal creature can't do or be subjected to Trip or Grapple maneuvers even if they or the opponent have a ghost touch weapon.

Quote:

Incorporeal creatures can’t fall or take falling damage. They can’t perform trip or grapple combat maneuvers, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they can’t take any physical actions that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions.

The Ghost touch ability allows full damage with a weapon, but, again RAW, doesn't allow combat maneuvers.

All considered, the rules are somewhat inconsistent.
The GM must decide what seems more appropriate to him and make a note of that, so he can apply it consistently.