Ok so I have a plan that I know is not the best, but I love the idea of it.
I am trying to put together a Magus, specifically a Myrmidarch who uses Deadly Dealer to throw cards from a harrow deck as his weapons.
My only question is:
Stay Magus 1-20, go harrower to keep the thematics but can probably not hit the broad side of a barn, or go eldritch knight for 10 levels.
Stats will be 16, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10.
Race will be human.
Traits will be Harrowed, and one other.
What can we do with this people?
Never played a Magus before so feel free to throw out the info.
P.S. Any way to make the deck a bonded item like a wizard would be nice.
I think Card Caster is the archetype you want rather than Myrmidiarch.
Cartomancer witch 3 is really needed for any character that's throwing harrow cards.
The only way I know of to reasonably make a deck resemble a bonded item involves using the cartomancer(witch) 3rd level deliver touch spells returning ability. The problem is that cards are treated as darts, which are ammo and thus destroyed on a successful hit, even if they have the returning quality, for everyone but a cartomancer.
avr wrote: I think Card Caster is the archetype you want rather than Myrmidiarch. If I take the deadly dealer feat I can just go the more offensive Myrmidarch, my ranged weapon will just be cards.
I looked into cartomancer witch but their rules for what the deck familiar can and can't do is fuzzy. Also I am not sure a Cartomancer can pull their weight in a 3 or 4 person game. Witch is a great class in my opinion but mainly as a 5th slot person.
cnetarian wrote: The only way I know of to reasonably make a deck resemble a bonded item involves using the cartomancer(witch) 3rd level deliver touch spells returning ability. The problem is that cards are treated as darts, which are ammo and thus destroyed on a successful hit, even if they have the returning quality, for everyone but a cartomancer. You got a couple of things wrong.
Darts are thrown weapons, not ammo. The cards are destroyed because they are cards not because they are ammo.
The third level of cartomancer prevents the cards from being destroyed. It's in the ability that grants you returning. "the card is not destroyed and gains the returning weapon special ability
Whisperknives wrote: If I take the deadly dealer feat I can just go the more offensive Myrmidarch, my ranged weapon will just be cards. If you don't get at least 3 level of cartomancer, your cards get destroyed when you attack. That's a HUGE money sink and you're sinking arcane points into your cards every attack to make them magical.
graystone wrote: Whisperknives wrote: If I take the deadly dealer feat I can just go the more offensive Myrmidarch, my ranged weapon will just be cards. If you don't get at least 3 level of cartomancer, your cards get destroyed when you attack. That's a HUGE money sink and you're sinking arcane points into your cards every attack to make them magical. Arcane/deadly dealer enhances the deck as the weapon the cards are the ammo, so it is one arcane point or a swift action each round as Myrmidarch, I would of corse have arcane strike. If I take card caster and Myrmidarch it costs nothing as long as I have an arcane point left.
If I can make the item an arcane bond item, I am sure my gm would be fine with the item being healed of damage every morning being considered destroyed cards being replaced.
To clairify, by making them magic, I'm talking about your enhancement bonus.
Cards thrown are "treated as masterwork weapons when thrown". That means you spend an arcane point on the card, you throw the card and then it's destroyed. You then pull out a second card, have to spend a second arcane point for your second attack and THAT card is destroyed I the attack.
It's 1 point per card. The deck is ONLY partially counted as ammo when you enchant them. "can enhance a deck of cards as though it were a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition." Note it NOT just enhance like ammo. It's counted as a ranged weapon AND ammo.
Now if you can pull some house-rule out of your GM, go for it. But the only RAW way to get around your deck blowing up with attack is 3rd level cartomancer.
graystone wrote: To clairify, by making them magic, I'm talking about your enhancement bonus.
Cards thrown are "treated as masterwork weapons when thrown". That means you spend an arcane point on the card, you throw the card and then it's destroyed. You then pull out a second card, have to spend a second arcane point for your second attack and THAT card is destroyed I the attack.
It's 1 point per card. The deck is ONLY partially counted as ammo when you enchant them. "can enhance a deck of cards as though it were a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition." Note it NOT just enhance like ammo. It's counted as a ranged weapon AND ammo.
Now if you can pull some house-rule out of your GM, go for it. But the only RAW way to get around your deck blowing up with attack is 3rd level cartomancer.
Card caster specifically says that you can do lethal damage as long as you have 1 point in your arcane pool.
Lethal damage isn't the point here, it seems. It's the magic weapon abilities. Otherwise you're just throwing masterwork cards and completely losing out on arcane pool or any other sorts of enhancement bonuses, because the cards are individual weapons, like a one shot thrown dagger that is destroyed.
Never said anything about lethal damage. You're going to need enhancement bonuses to hit and damage. +3 gets you the ability to bypass cold iron/silver, adamantine* and alignment-based DR.
No point in trying to enchant a deck with the enhancement bonuses when they get destroyed with every attack.
EDIT: DethBySquirl got it. ;)
graystone wrote: cnetarian wrote: The only way I know of to reasonably make a deck resemble a bonded item involves using the cartomancer(witch) 3rd level deliver touch spells returning ability. The problem is that cards are treated as darts, which are ammo and thus destroyed on a successful hit, even if they have the returning quality, for everyone but a cartomancer. You got a couple of things wrong.
Darts are thrown weapons, not ammo. The cards are destroyed because they are cards not because they are ammo.
The third level of cartomancer prevents the cards from being destroyed. It's in the ability that grants you returning. "the card is not destroyed and gains the returning weapon special ability Ammunition (Thrown): Darts
Darts are missile weapons, designed to fly such that a sharp, often weighted point will strike first. They can be distinguished from javelins by fletching (i.e., feathers on the tail) and a shaft that is shorter and/or more flexible, and from arrows by the fact that they are not of the right length to use with a normal bow.
(Simple)
Ranged Weapons Cost Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Critical Range Weight1 Type2 Special
Dart 5 sp 1d3 1d4 x2 20 ft. 1/2 lb. P —
Darts are ammunition, the weapon is the deck. The cards get destroyed because they are ammunition. If I use my arcane pool to enhance my weapon I enhance the deck not the specific card.
That would be like saying a magic bow doesn't enhance it's arrows or that a Myrmidarch that use arcane pool has to spend 1 point per arrow. Which is not the case.
Deadly dealer even says:
A spellcaster with this feat can enhance a deck of cards as though it were a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammunition. This enhancement functions only when used in tandem with this feat, and has no affect on any other way the cards might be used.
The deck is the weapon, thus enhanced, the cards are just ammo, like arrows.
graystone wrote: cnetarian wrote: The only way I know of to reasonably make a deck resemble a bonded item involves using the cartomancer(witch) 3rd level deliver touch spells returning ability. The problem is that cards are treated as darts, which are ammo and thus destroyed on a successful hit, even if they have the returning quality, for everyone but a cartomancer. You got a couple of things wrong.
Darts are thrown weapons, not ammo. The cards are destroyed because they are cards not because they are ammo.
The third level of cartomancer prevents the cards from being destroyed. It's in the ability that grants you returning. "the card is not destroyed and gains the returning weapon special ability Funny the SRD lists them as ammo and my CRB has them on the weapon list but has no description, as does the PRD for the Core Rule Book, although there is a description in Ultimate Equipment. Given the description in UE, the SRD must be wrong, so you are right that darts aren't ammunition. Have to make a note on that.
Dart is under simple ranged weapons NOT ammo. Look at the PRD in the listings to your left. The description: "Dart, Price 5 sp, Type simple
This thrown weapon is larger than an arrow and shorter than a javelin, with a weighted tip and a shorter range than a javelin. Most darts are wooden shafts with a thick metal point." Thrown weapon NOT ammo. Type simple NOT ammo.
Now there are darts that are ammo and they are Kestros darts,
Blowgun darts and Atlatl darts. Any time it just says just dart, and that means the thrown weapon.
I don't know where you found that listing for the dart as ammo, but it's not from the current official rules. PRD.
EDIT: cnetarian, not sure where they came up with that but I can only guess it's very outdated.
Doesn't matter because the feat and specific rules for that are listed.
Abraham spalding wrote: Doesn't matter because the feat and specific rules for that are listed. I'm not sure who or what you are replying to.
Card Caster enhances the whole deck so 1 arcane points makes the entire 54 cards magical for 1 minute. i don't think you are going to throw more than 50 cards for combat like, ever. The only real drawback for a magus is that the cards have a shitty crit stat.
graystone wrote: Abraham spalding wrote: Doesn't matter because the feat and specific rules for that are listed. I'm not sure who or what you are replying to. He's saying that the specific rules for Deadly Dealer trump the general rules for darts. Yes, if you just buy a dart from the store, it is a simple thrown weapon. But the Deadly Dealer feat states you treat the deck as a ranged weapon with 54 pieces of ammo and each card deals damage "as a dart". So you take the damage stats and mechanics of a dart (thrown weapon calculations), but the cards themselves are treated as ammo and the deck, as a whole, is treated as a ranged weapon (ie. bow, crossbow, etc).
Now, on to mechanical difficulties. Spell Combat requires one hand to be completely free and the other hand to wield a melee weapon. This was clarified in various Spell Combat FAQs that it must be a melee weapon held/wielded in your actual hand (wings, kicks, boulder helmets, etc. need not apply) and the opposite hand must be completely free for the entire duration of the Spell Combat action. Wielding a ranged weapon, unless otherwise specified, is a two-handed commitment. So you need to hold the deck in one hand and draw from the deck and throw with the other. That doesn't match the requirements of Spell Combat; you are neither wielding a melee weapon nor do you have one hand free for the entire duration. Neither Myrmidarch nor Card Caster archetype includes a provision for performing Spell Combat while wielding a Ranged weapon rather than a Melee weapon so using your Cards along with Spell Combat is a no-go in either case. Now, since one hand is only used to draw and throw (ie. not constantly in use), you could very well hold the deck in one hand and cast a spell with the other as a standard action in conjunction with Harrowed/Ranged Spellstrike. So you could cast Shocking Grasp, draw a card, and deliver the Shocking Grasp via card as a Card Caster. The Card Caster can use Harrowed Spellstrike with any Touch (ie. Shocking Grasp) or Ranged (ie. Scorching Ray) spell while Myrmidarch only gets to use Ranged Spellstrike with a Ranged Touch spell (ie. Scorching Ray). But neither archetype lets you combine it with Spell Combat. In essence, these two "ranged Magi" are meant to be more switch-hitters; using ranged weapons with spellstrike, then switching to a melee weapon and either spell combat or plain old full-attack. They are not intended to combine ranged combat, spellstrike, and spell combat all into one. You can even see this hinted at in the Myrmidarch archetype description:
PRD wrote: The myrmidarch is a skilled specialist, using magic to supplement and augment his martial mastery. Less inclined to mix the two than a typical magus, the myrmidarch seeks supremacy with blade, bow, and armor.
Is there a reason he can't combine Myrmidarch and Card caster? Then he can pick up the 3 levels in Cartomancer.
Slacker2010 wrote: Is there a reason he can't combine Myrmidarch and Card caster? Then he can pick up the 3 levels in Cartomancer. Those two archetypes have no overlap so are valid to combine. Myrmidarch changes Spellcasting and Fighter Training, and replaces Spell Recall/Improved Spell Recall, Magus Arcana 6, 12, and 18, Knowledge Pool, Improved/Greater Spell Combat, and True Magus. Card Caster, modifies Spellstrike and Arcane Pool, and replaces Magus Arcana 3.
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