Delaying a second archetype based on delayed acquisition of class feature


Rules Questions


Legacy AON PRD said wrote:
If an archetype replaces a class ability that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype.

Assuming the Magus's spell recall class feature fell under this Alternate Class Features guidance (I'm not sure I've ever seen a definite ruling or a recommendation by a developer on the matter), and an archetype that traded it away gained it back when they would normally gain improved spell recall...

... could you then trade away spell recall a second time for another archetype that gives up spell recall (assuming a GM concurs to an existing character taking on an archetype after 1st level, as per the Adapting Existing Characters section from the same book)?


Pretty sure you cannot take different archetypes that alter the same class feature, not without GM permission. Acquiring a lower level version of a class feature later would be a modification of that class feature.

Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat wrote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature.
Advanced Player's Guide wrote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.


That does make sense. Whether or not you're (re)gaining a class feature later on doesn't take away from the fact that the original archetype modified/traded it away.

Thanks for the wisdom, DeathlessOne!


You are quite welcome. If this was at my table, I'd likely allow it.


The adapting existing characters section is talking about character created before the book came out. Unless you have a character that predates the books the archetypes you are interested in that section does not apply. Considering how long it has been since a 1st edition rules book was published I doubt that is the situation. Your GM is of course free to house rule whatever he wants, but in that case, it is a house rule and therefore not a rules question. RAW you cannot take an archetype after 1st level.


You absolutely can, by RAW, take an archetype after 1st level. From the archetype retraining rules in UCamp:

"Note that you don't have to use the retraining rules to take an archetype if your class level is low enough that the archetype doesn't modify any of your current class abilities. For example, if you're a 1st-level fighter who wants the archer archetype, that archetype doesn't replace any class abilities until fighter level 2, so you don't need to use the retraining rules at all—once you reach 2nd level, you can just decide to take the archer archetype."

The Exchange

Java Man wrote:
You absolutely can, by RAW, take an archetype after 1st level. From the archetype retraining rules in UCamp:

That's not exactly what Phoebus was asking.

Let's take the Kintargo Rebel rogue as an example. She gives up Trap Sense and Uncanny Dodge. Nothing else. Which means that she gains Uncanny Dodge at 8th level, when a non-archetyped rogue would get Improved Uncanny Dodge. So the Kintargo Rebel has an ability called Uncanny Dodge at 8th level. Can she take another archetype at 8th level that requires giving up or modifying Uncanny Dodge since she then has it?

Answer is that this is something that I might be willing to work with a player on if they have a great character idea. But it's going to require making so many individualized decisions about effective levels of class/archetype features that it would basically be a custom archetype. Rules-wise it's not allowed, as DeathlessOne pointed out.

Spoiler:
I couldn't actually find any archetypes where this would even by possible. Everything had at least one other conflict. There might be some, I just didn't find them.


Sorry, I was responding to Mysterious Stranger's specific (inaccurate) statement about being required to take atchetupes at first level. Others have made all the points I would regarding the OP's question.

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