A summoner's eidolon can have a primary unarmed attack that deals 1d8 damage and has the disarm/shove/trip trait (or nonlethal). But is there really a point to this beyond adding your handwraps' item bonus to the Athletics check? The main purpose of the disarm, shove, and trip traits is to let the user Disarm, Shove, or Trip despite not having a free hand.
If either unarmed attack is a fist, then doesn't the eidolon have a free hand already? Couldn't it just decide to Disarm, Shove, or Trip the opponent?
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Even if the unarmed attack isn't a fist they still have two free hands, so yeah, other than using the "weapon" bonus/Handwraps instead of the bonus to Athletics, I don't think there is a reason in isolation. But some later feats do require a specific trait, i.e. Pushing Attack requires the Eidelon's attack has the Shove trait.
But maybe we are being too restrictive? I'm definitely curious to see how others have run this.
I don't know. There doesn't seem to be any cost to giving the eidolon a fist, which would theoretically provide a free hand for free. Familiars need a special ability to perform manipulate actions.
And if eidolons just straight up had working free hands, then there wouldn't be any narrative reason they couldn't use items. And yet, they explicitly can't use items without the eidolon trait.
Strangely, there don't seem to be any summoner feats that grant the eidolon hands, manipulate actions, or the like. But I find it unlikely that the devs were worried about eidolons with hands being too powerful. They share HP with the summoner, so the PC wouldn't avoid any risk by having the eidolon perform dangerous hands-on stuff.
Further complicating things, eidolons share your skill proficiencies. If they can't have hands, then they can't use skill actions that require hands. But the fact of the matter is they already can't for skill actions that require tools without the eidolon trait.
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Yes, you are being too restrictive. You're deciphering intent to fill a hole that doesn't need filling, and which would need explicit language in order to be a rule exclusive to Eidelons.
Using their unarmed weapons requires weapons traits to perform those maneuvers, yes, but Eidelons have limbs too (usually). They have two free hands* as normal and we would need notation if it were an exception. These limbs are not tertiary attacks that need to be listed much like no other creature in the game has their "limbs for maneuvers" listed. And no, even if one were to count it as listed, "fist" is not tied to performing maneuvers at all (hence fist not listing the maneuvers even though one's free hand can perform all of them). Heck, fist doesn't even require limbs.
So yes, Advanced Weaponry is mediocre, giving only a different magic item for one's bonus and a prereq for higher level feats (in a game which tries to avoid gating feats). I imagine a Remastered version will rectify this imbalance...somehow.
*As a mechanic not tied (much) to their form or actual number.
Advanced Weaponry gives Versatile too. That's useful, isn't it?
I remember Castilliano saying the traits are largely just prerequisites for feats. But that's not true for the disarm trait. Giving your primary attack disarm doesn't lead to any feats, which is especially glaring since this was written back when Disarm was awful and wore off at the start of the target's turn. Why take disarm at all if every eidolon can get hands for free?
Disarm makes sense on a weapon since you need to hold the weapon, and that would normally prevent you from Disarming. You don't need to hold an unarmed attack.
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All of those creatures you listed do have hands mechanically with which they can do maneuvers. Any generic creature form, even one that lacked any attack actions or limbs, could perform all of the maneuvers. But not Eidelons? For Familiars, Paizo had to explicitly state their limitations, but not for Eidelons? Animal & Construct Companions, even snakes or exotic ones w/ no hands, can perform maneuvers. But not Eidelons which are superior?
None of that makes sense.
Yes, there's a mediocre feat that uses perhaps overly inclusive language because there's no corresponding high-level feat yet for Disarm. This doesn't imply an unseen rule which would indicate Paizo devs lack of basic communication skills. It just makes Disarm a poor choice since you only get minimal benefit (but not zero benefit).
I think the whole of PF2 on this topic, other than that single feat, points at the conclusion that Eidelons can perform maneuvers just fine.
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I do need to 2nd Castilliano here.
Monsters are able to perform Athletic maneuvers without needing hands.
As far as I can tell, there is no reason/rule to deny Eidolons that same default capability.
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You keep saying "it doesn't have hands," as though that was a given, when that isn't supported by the rules (and clearly doesn't match the art or descriptions).
They can get the traits to gain the benefits of the traits. Attacks with those traits can also be upgraded with feats. That has nothing to do with being able to use the actions in the first place.
Having two unarmed attacks doesn't imply they can't grab things. What?
And the first attack choice deals the most damage. The extra trait is a bonus. The higher damage is attractive without it. It's kind of the default option for eidolons with higher Strength.
You can make any lethal attack nonlethal with a penalty (or vice versa). Heck, the Nonlethal trait is arguably a drawback. Sometimes you want to deal nonlethal damage, so it can be desirable, but it's never more powerful and sometimes it's less.
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Yes, of course a Mist Stalker can perform the Trip action.
Yes, an Anger Phantom (an Eidelon) should be able to do all the maneuvers that any non-Eidelon Phantom can (barring being Incorporeal because that trait does state a rule barring that). And yes, an Anger Phantom can play piano w/ a Perform check, however badly.
Your examples make no sense. It's even worse in light of the fact players choose how many hands their Eidelons have and whether or not their unarmed attacks involve those hands or not.
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The default is that creatures can perform Athletics maneuvers so the burden of proof is on you, Easl, to show where Eidelons can't.
You say "my reading", but what exactly are you reading? Advanced Weaponry implies no such thing as no hands or no maneuvers (no matter how bad Disarm is as an option). And the example shapes of most if not all Eidelons include options with hands or comparable limbs.
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You can make any lethal attack nonlethal with a penalty (or vice versa). Heck, the Nonlethal trait is arguably a drawback. Sometimes you want to deal nonlethal damage, so it can be desirable, but it's never more powerful and sometimes it's less.
That's a good point. The nonlethal trait is being provided as an option alongside the disarm, shove, and trip traits. Since the nonlethal trait is so weak compared to those traits, perhaps the other three traits are intended to provide less of a benefit than they would on an actual weapon. Maybe they really only serve to let you add an item bonus to the Athletics check.
On the other hand, some of these primary attacks seem on par with regular one-handed weapons. The fatal one looks a lot like a pick, the shove one looks a lot like a warhammer, the forceful/sweep one looks a lot like a scimitar, etc. It would be strange if one of the primary attacks was intended to noticeably underperform compared to these weapons.
The feat being poorly written seems to be what Castilliano is claiming. Though the primary attack in question has the same wording.
Perhaps the fist option is purely meant to be flavor? The rules for picking attacks say you can have the attack take the form of a fist, but maybe that's all it is. A battering attack that looks like a curled fist but lacks the prehensile capabilities of an actual hand.
And there still is the benefit of scaling the specific trait maneuver from the SMN's invested weapon. Without using the feat to get the weapon trait, you cannot do that.
So at the very worst, the feat is still a way to get an item bonus for your preferred maneuver.
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The biggest issue for me is that we know Eidolons inherit the basic actions from somewhere, which is the same case for Animal Companions. And nowhere within SMN/Eidolon text are athletic maneuvers banned.
To be consistent, any GM ruling against Eidolons being able to Trip w/o the feat also needs to rule that Animal Companions are unable to for the same reason.
Nowhere in the text does it explicitly enable the ACs to do maneuvers.
Perhaps I'm undervaluing the item bonus these traits grant. The lowest level source of an item bonus to Athletics (for nonconsumables) is 3, while a +1 weapon potency rune is level 2.
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SP - I think that the traits are also there for non-hand attacks as well. Say I have a beast eidolon, and I want their primary attack to be a gouging horn. Usually that kind of attack would not be usable to disarm or shove, but now I can because I added it to the horn attack.
Also the traits allow you to use the attack's reach to trip etc. instead of it using your standard reach.
If that's your goal, couldn't you have just given it an attack that uses a hand, ignoring the suggested attacks? You aren't limited to those suggested attacks.
It's my understanding that all creatures in PF2e are capable of making "fist" attacks and basic combat maneuvers. Despite that, whether or not they can also take manipulate actions likely depends on their specific anatomy, the task they are attempting to perform, and the GM's views on the matter. (For example, a canine might be able to pick up and move a large bone or drag a body with its mouth, but would likely have a much harder time loading and launching a mortar shell.)
The only thing I've seen that even remotely implies otherwise is the Awakened Animal ancestry, which says "Your heritage gives you a special unarmed attack instead of the fist unarmed attack humanoids typically gain."
It's my understanding that all creatures in PF2e are capable of making "fist" attacks and basic combat maneuvers. Despite that, whether or not they can also take manipulate actions likely depends on their specific anatomy, the task they are attempting to perform, and the GM's views on the matter. (For example, a canine might be able to pick up and move a large bone or drag a body with its mouth, but would likely have a much harder time loading and launching a mortar shell.)
The only thing I've seen that even remotely implies otherwise is the Awakened Animal ancestry, which says "Your heritage gives you a special unarmed attack instead of the fist unarmed attack humanoids typically gain."
What if they dont have arms?
Like can an ooze make a fist attack or just the specific attacks it has in its stat block?
Eidolons can be human shaped. Therefore all eidolons can do what human eidolons can otherwise it wouldn't be balanced.
Having extra traits on their attacks just opens minor benefits and qualifies for a few feats. They get about as much value from those traits as most monks. The biggest thing this gives is using your weapon item bonus for the maneuver instead of your item bonus to the related skill, freeing you up to not get a skill boosting item if your summoner has no use for it.
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It's my understanding that all creatures in PF2e are capable of making "fist" attacks and basic combat maneuvers. Despite that, whether or not they can also take manipulate actions likely depends on their specific anatomy, the task they are attempting to perform, and the GM's views on the matter. (For example, a canine might be able to pick up and move a large bone or drag a body with its mouth, but would likely have a much harder time loading and launching a mortar shell.)
The only thing I've seen that even remotely implies otherwise is the Awakened Animal ancestry, which says "Your heritage gives you a special unarmed attack instead of the fist unarmed attack humanoids typically gain."
What if they dont have arms?
Like can an ooze make a fist attack or just the specific attacks it has in its stat block?
Insofar as I'm aware, yes. If the ooze had a mind to, it could make fist attacks despite not having actual fists.
Yes, the ooze could theoretically use a part of its body to perform an unarmed Strike with the same statistics as a human fist, much like how a human can kick with their fist statistics. But the ooze still doesn't have an actual hand, right?
This does get me thinking, though. I get Disarm requiring a hand, but why Shove and Trip? Has no one seen 300? Has no one seen a low-sweeping kick knock someone prone? You can Force Open a door with your body hands-free. Why not Shove?
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This does get me thinking, though. I get Disarm requiring a hand, but why Shove and Trip? Has no one seen 300? Has no one seen a low-sweeping kick knock someone prone? You can Force Open a door with your body hands-free. Why not Shove?
Game balance taking priority over realism. They want 1h/free hand builds to have something they can do that 2h builds can't do as easily, so 2h isn't strictly better. Athletics maneuvers are one such thing.
If you want to do it with a 2h weapon you either need a trait or you're paying the hands action economy tax. This is why the Guisarme is a great weapon: Reach & Trip is a potent trait package.
Guardian also has feats to be able to do stuff like this in a variety of ways.
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This does get me thinking, though. I get Disarm requiring a hand, but why Shove and Trip? Has no one seen 300? Has no one seen a low-sweeping kick knock someone prone? You can Force Open a door with your body hands-free. Why not Shove?Game balance taking priority over realism. They want 1h/free hand builds to have something they can do that 2h builds can't do as easily, so 2h isn't strictly better. Athletics maneuvers are one such thing.
If you want to do it with a 2h weapon you either need a trait or you're paying the hands action economy tax. This is why the Guisarme is a great weapon: Reach & Trip is a potent trait package.
Guardian also has feats to be able to do stuff like this in a variety of ways.
This is something that I don't think is mentioned often enough.
Pathfinder 2e is a beautiful work of art and an amazing feat of engineering when you really delve into it.
For the reasons mentioned above, two-handers don't outshine everyone else. They're just built differently for different roles.
And if a two-hander wants to perform maneuvers? Well, all they need do is invest in a specific weapon with the desired traits that allow for it. And that keeps greatswords and great axes from dominating the two-handed weapon category. Everything balances everything else.
The amount of attention to detail bled into this system in order to make as many options vuable as possible is nothing short of extraordinary.
