Does the mythic ability speedy summons work with the variant summoning spells on the summoners list?

[Maniacwyrm]

Speedy summons specifically says when you cast summon monster and the summoners various summon spells like summon genie, summon infernal host, summon cacaodaemon all says in the spell description” as summon monster but summons (whatever is in the name). So would it count as a summon monster spell for the purposes of feats and abilities like speedy summons?

[Mysterious Stranger]

It is going to be up to your GM. Personally, I would say if the spells says it functions like summon monster or other summon monster spells it should work. Considering how overpowered the mythic rules are it is not going to make a big difference.

[Maniacwyrm]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

It is going to be up to your GM. Personally, I would say if the spells says it functions like summon monster or other summon monster spells it should work. Considering how overpowered the mythic rules are it is not going to make a big difference.

Yeah it’s what we thought too since all its variables and stuff is the same as summon monster and it says it functions as summon monster. Cool thanks

[Diego Rossi]

Quote:

Speedy Summons (Su) (Mythic Adventures pg. 17): When you cast a summon monster spell, the casting time is 1 standard action instead of 1 round. If you expend one use of mythic power, the casting time becomes 1 swift action. If you’re a summoner, as a full-round action you can expend one use of mythic power to summon your eidolon. You must be at least 3rd tier to select this ability.

It says "summon monster spell", not a summoning spell or a spell summoning a creature. RAW, it doesn't even work with spells with a different name.

RAI, probably it is meant to work with all the summon [creature] spells.

[Maniacwyrm]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Quote:

Speedy Summons (Su) (Mythic Adventures pg. 17): When you cast a summon monster spell, the casting time is 1 standard action instead of 1 round. If you expend one use of mythic power, the casting time becomes 1 swift action. If you’re a summoner, as a full-round action you can expend one use of mythic power to summon your eidolon. You must be at least 3rd tier to select this ability.

It says "summon monster spell", not a summoning spell or a spell summoning a creature. RAW, it doesn't even work with spells with a different name.

RAI, probably it is meant to work with all the summon [creature] spells.

Oh there’s no question about RAI since all the summoners summon spells specifically says in the spell description “functions as summon monster but summons [insert creature here] instead”. I have just asking if that line is enough to also make it RAW since it explicitly says the spell work as a summon monster spell. Personally would rule that it can but wanted to see if anyone mentioned anything I missed

[Diego Rossi]

RAW, it doesn't work.

There isn't a progression that goes:
Summon monster -> works as Summon monster -> works on Summon monster

It is:
works as Summon monster <- Summon monster -> works on Summon monster

works as Summon monster and works on Summon monster never meet each other unless there is specific text that says they do.

BTW, Summon Nature's Ally works like summon monster (even if it doesn't contain text saying that), but the ability doesn't even consider that chain of spells.

[glass]

Maniacwyrm wrote:

Oh there’s no question about RAI since all the summoners summon spells specifically says in the spell description “functions as summon monster but summons [insert creature here] instead”.

There is always a question about RAI! Most likely IMNSHO, whoever wrote the spells in question never considered the interaction with Speedy Summons or vice versa, so RAI does not exist.

Diego Rossi wrote:

BTW, Summon Nature's Ally works like summon monster (even if it doesn't contain text saying that), but the ability doesn't even consider that chain of spells.

This seems like a non-sequitur, given that the reason that the spells in question do have "text saying that".

Anyway, the question hinges on whether the ability to be affected by outside abilities is part of the spells' functionality, or separate from it. In my opinion, either position is reasonable. However, when you are trying to determine whether you have permission by RAW, you have to go less permissive interpretation IMO.

So I broadly agree with your conclusions, if not exact the logic behind them.

That said, I would probably allow it in those specific cases (while acknowledging that it is not RAW, and so reserving the right to not do so in other similar cases if needs be).

[Diego Rossi]

glass wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

BTW, Summon Nature's Ally works like summon monster (even if it doesn't contain text saying that), but the ability doesn't even consider that chain of spells.

This seems like a non-sequitur, given that the reason that the spells in question do have "text saying that".

I think that the fact that the ability excludes Druids is relevant when speaking of RAI. After some thinking, my opinion has changed. I think that RAW and RAI coincide. The ability is limited to the Summon Monster spells and doesn't work with Summon X spells.

[Melkiador]

You could argue around the wording a lot. A “summon monster spell” is never clearly defined. We could assume it’s any spell that has summon monster in the name, but we aren’t told to do that. You could just as easily interpret that to mean any spell that summons monsters and has a one round casting time.

Really, summoning is pretty weak in mythic, so I see no problem in being lenient with it. The mythic powers to buff summons and pets just don’t keep up with the high throughput in the rest of mythic

[Mysterious Stranger]

Druids and all classes that cast summon natures ally are divine casters. Speedy Summons is an archimage path ability. Since the archimage path is targeted at arcane casters not divine casters, it makes since the ability would not include those spells. While there is not rule that you must be an arcane caster to take the archimage path many of the abilities do specify they only work with arcane spells. None of the archimage arcana work with divine spells. Using the argument it does not mention spells that an arcane caster does not have access to is not a good argument for how it works.

[Diego Rossi]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Druids and all classes that cast summon natures ally are divine casters.

As a minimum, a First Worlder Summoner can use Summon Nature Ally. Probably other archetypes can do that.