Q re Champion Feats: Brilliant Flash, Defensive Advance

[Dumb Paladin]

Hello! Did a search but couldn't find much on the internet about either of these Champion feats.

Question regarding Brilliant Flash: Brilliant Flash says,
"When you use Flash of Grandeur, the attacker is also off-guard for 1 round."

Flash of Grandeur says,
"[snip] Until the end of your next turn, the attacker is affected by revealing light."

Q1.) Is the attacker automatically affected by the spell revealing light, with no saving throw allowed?
Q2.) If a saving throw IS allowed, and the attacker successfully saves, does Brilliant Flash still apply?

Question regarding Defensive Advance:
Uh ... is this feat any good? Is it worth taking instead of Brilliant Flash at 1st level? Raising Shield AND Striding AND possibly striking all for 2 actions seems pretty amazing, but I imagine if the rest of your combat is toe-to-toe with some guy, you will only get to use this ability once.

Any advice is greatly appreciated; I've obviously played a paladin/champion before, but not in Pathfinder 2nd Edition.

[NorrKnekten]

Q1: Yes, When an effect says that a creature becomes affected or gains the effect of another ability or spell without mention of a saving throw then its automatic, The difference in degrees of success from the spell only changes the duration, but Flash of Grandeur has a set Duration.

Q2: Yes, The text says that they become offguard when you use the ability, As written it doesn't care about a save.

Defensive Advance: This is a pretty good feat, You are effectively getting 3 actions for 2, But you would obviously only use it if you would otherwise take all three actions. You have other ways to make creatures offguard depending on Weapon/Talent Choices, Flanking is also an option.

And otherwise you could always just take Brilliant Flash at 2nd level instead of a 2nd Level feat, Or take Defensive Advance at 2nd, Even if I do enjoy the Remastered Oaths.

[Finoan]

NorrKnekten wrote:

When an effect says that a creature becomes affected or gains the effect of another ability or spell without mention of a saving throw then its automatic

I rather disagree with that being a general ruling. The saves and degrees of success are part of the effect. So having one ability duplicating the effect of another ability would include any saving throw and save results that it uses.

For example, Rattle the Earth still allows a Reflex save to avoid falling into the fissures that it creates (among other things). The Kineticist ability isn't silently buffed compared to a spellcaster casting Earthquake by not having saving throws for any of the effects.

I might agree with that specifically for Flash of Grandeur. That is a bit more ambiguous.

[NorrKnekten]

Finoan wrote:

NorrKnekten wrote:

When an effect says that a creature becomes affected or gains the effect of another ability or spell without mention of a saving throw then its automatic

I rather disagree with that being a general ruling. The saves and degrees of success are part of the effect. So having one ability duplicating the effect of another ability would include any saving throw and save results that it uses.

For example, Rattle the Earth still allows a Reflex save to avoid falling into the fissures that it creates (among other things). The Kineticist ability isn't silently buffed compared to a spellcaster casting Earthquake by not having saving throws for any of the effects.

I think you missunderstood what I was trying to say, And I can honestly see why with how its written.

The sentence was supposed to be.
When an effect says that a creature becomes affected, or gains the effect of another ||ability or spell with no mention of a saving throw||.

as in, its automatic when;
A, The text mentions you become affected.
B, The text mentions you gaining the effects of something that has no saving throw.

From what I can tell the effects depends on the Saving Throw or Attack Roll and not the other way around, but when someone becomes "affected" I think both of us can agree that "the creature is affected by" then having to save only to go "is unaffected by" is a complete nonsense ruling.

When applying the effects of spell with a save as opposed to being affected by such a thing. Then yes, you need to look at both the spell and the feat,
The feat itself will very often ask for a save, or more commonly tell you the DC to use.

Such as with Ferocious Gust and Web Slinger

Rattle the Earth doesnt, but Impulses are already defined as using your Class DC whenever an effect requires a save. Though Earthquake is a bit weird as it doesn't change its effect from a save nor do you save against it when its cast. The effect just happens and does include saves after its been cast same as Web.

[Bluemagetim]

Defensive advance is a great ability for shield users. Its often the turns where you need to move that makes you choose between striking and raising that shield so getting both with a stride is exactly the kind of situation where you will need it.
that could be moving to foes in the first turns but also moving to draw reactions or moving to get allies in range of your aura. Positioning is an important part of playing a champion so having the ability to action compress raising your shield with movement and striking is valuable.

[Dumb Paladin]

Bluemagetim wrote:

Defensive advance is a great ability for shield users. Its often the turns where you need to move that makes you choose between striking and raising that shield so getting both with a stride is exactly the kind of situation where you will need it.

that could be moving to foes in the first turns but also moving to draw reactions or moving to get allies in range of your aura. Positioning is an important part of playing a champion so having the ability to action compress raising your shield with movement and striking is valuable.

Yeah, I was re-reading the feat and noticing it doesn't require you to be in a position at the end where you can Strike an enemy, it merely gives you that ability (which is obviously something you'll want to do a lot).

The flexibility of that makes the feat worth it, to me.

Thanks for everyone who answered both questions.

[NorrKnekten]

Dumb Paladin wrote:

Bluemagetim wrote:

Defensive advance is a great ability for shield users. Its often the turns where you need to move that makes you choose between striking and raising that shield so getting both with a stride is exactly the kind of situation where you will need it.

that could be moving to foes in the first turns but also moving to draw reactions or moving to get allies in range of your aura. Positioning is an important part of playing a champion so having the ability to action compress raising your shield with movement and striking is valuable.

Yeah, I was re-reading the feat and noticing it doesn't require you to be in a position at the end where you can Strike an enemy, it merely gives you that ability (which is obviously something you'll want to do a lot).

The flexibility of that makes the feat worth it, to me.

Thanks for everyone who answered both questions.

Thats pretty much it yeah, It gives you the ability to combine 3 actions at the cost of 2. As mentioned before you wouldnt use it when you don't get the strike simply because of how Subordinate Actions and the Flourish Trait works. Remember, you only get one use of Flourish per round. But you can still just Stride and Raise Shield as normal.

But its going to come up rather often that you are going to want to stride,strike and raise shield and then maybe also use Lay on hands or Smite.

Later on you are going to have to choose between which Flourish you want to use if you pick any up but i've yet to see a champion not pick Blessed Counterstrike