Thoughts on building toward Bull Rush Strike?

[CountMRVHS]

I'm putting together a Sword Saint Samurai, and I'm aware of the issues with Iaijutsu Strike.

One of the ways to potentially maximize that strike is to make use of the increased crit chance from wielding a katana and getting a crit confirm bonus as part of the archetype.

Bull Rush Strike is something that can be done with a crit, and it seems neat and flavorful. Your confirm roll exceeds the opponent's CMD, and you push them back, with no need to move with them.

That distance somewhat negates one of the weaknesses of the Iaijutsu Strike, the -4 (or -2 at lvl 10) AC penalty in the following round. It could also be handy in certain situations, just like Bull Rush in general.

My main concern is that Bull Rush might become increasingly difficult to pull off at level 9 and above, when this feat is available. I suspect CMDs inflate pretty rapidly - but beyond that, I've got to deal with larger creatures, 4-footed creatures, and so on.

Delaying Critical Focus by a couple of levels is also a bit annoying.

There's also a requirement for Improved Bull Rush, which I could fit in... but now we're talking a 2-feat investment for this one trick.

So, will Bull Rush scale well, or is it kind of a trap?

[Mysterious Stranger]

Staggering Critical is probably a better thing to build to. The nice thing about it is that even if they make the save, they are still staggered for 1 round. It does require Critical Focus and a BAB of 13, but it works on any creature that is not immune to the staggered condition.

[CountMRVHS]

Staggering Critical is a good one! I could grab that at 13 and then upgrade it to Stunning Critical at 17.

However, it occurs to me that Staggering Critical could *also* work with Bull Rush Strike. Since the latter is not a 'critical' feat it could trigger on the same strike.

I mocked up some numbers for a lvl 9 Sword Saint (Samurai) with Bull Rush Strike. Since BRS uses the confirmation roll to determine whether and how far you push the foe, here's what I'd be working with:

-Critical Focus (acquired at lvl 8 via Order of Vengeance) +4 to confirm

-Weapon Expertise (lvl 3 Samurai ability) +2 to confirm with katana

-Brutal Slash: if the crit occurs during a Iaijutsu Strike, I get 1/2 my Sword Saint level to the confirm. At lvl 9 this would be another +4

So that's a +6 (+10 on Iaijutsu Strike) to confirm, before we add in the +9 from BAB, say a +5 from Str, and whatever enhancements I might have from a weapon ... say +2? Another +2 from Improved Bull Rush (a prereq for BRS). Oh, Order of Vengeance also adds a +1 to hit challenged targets per 4 lvls vs foes I've encountered in the past 24 hours, so assuming a challenged foe that's another +3 at lvl 9.

So conservatively that's a +24 on the confirmation roll; on Iaijutsu Strike it's more like +31.

Seems decent for lvl 9?
That seems like pretty decent odds of overcoming CMD

[Mysterious Stranger]

Bullrush pushes the target away from you. Have you thought through the implications of this? Now the target that you just attacked is no longer within reach of your weapon. That means you can no longer attack them. If this is your last hit of the round that is not a big deal, but what about on the first hit? You can of course choose not to use the feat on the first hit, but that hit is the one you have the greatest chance of hitting with. You are actually making your character weaker with this.

If you want to take a critical strike feat take sundering strike instead. If you have both staggering critical and sundering strike on a critical you destroy the opponent’s weapon and stagger them. If they draw a new weapon (move action) to be able to attack it provokes an AoO.

[I grok do u]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Bullrush pushes the target away from you. Have you thought through the implications of this? Now the target that you just attacked is no longer within reach of your weapon. That means you can no longer attack them. If this is your last hit of the round that is not a big deal, but what about on the first hit? You can of course choose not to use the feat on the first hit, but that hit is the one you have the greatest chance of hitting with. You are actually making your character weaker with this.

If you want to take a critical strike feat take sundering strike instead. If you have both staggering critical and sundering strike on a critical you destroy the opponent’s weapon and stagger them. If they draw a new weapon (move action) to be able to attack it provokes an AoO.

To be fair, we are talking about Iaijutsu Strike, which is never less than a standard action, so isn't likely to have additional attacks that turn.

Actually could be interesting to incorporate an enlarge person spell/potion to the mix, so that if the bull rush pushes the enemy back 10 or more feet, they are likely to provoke while getting back into melee.

[Mysterious Stranger]

So, all your character will ever use is Iaijutsu Strike? Focusing your entire build on an ability that you may not always be able to use is dangerous. Iaijutsu Strike can only be used against a foe that you have challenged, and even then, only at the beginning of the combat. Once you make a single attack against a foe you cannot use Iaijutsu Strike on that fore for another 24 hours. You also only get a limited number of challenges per day. At 9th level you can use it maximum of 3 times per day. What happens when you fail to kill your target on the first strike? Iaijutsu Strike is a cool ability, but you should also build so that you can function when it is not available.

Another good feat combination for this character would be Cornugun Smash and Hurtful. Cornugun Smash allows you to use intimidate as a free action when attacking with power attack. Hurtful allows you to make a single attack against a foe you demoralized as a swift action. This means you can make an additional attack after using is Iaijutsu Strike. You could also take tripping strike instead of sundering strike. If your fore stands up after being tripped, you get an AoO. If you get high enough level that you can take all of those you could get two extra attacks on the target of is Iaijutsu Strike.

[CountMRVHS]

I was looking at Bull Rush Strike more as another thing to do with crits. Using a katana, probably keen at that level, with the confirmation bonuses from both the Samurai class and Sword Saint archetype, would lead to some decent crit chance, and I was thinking it would enhance the image of this character as a master swordsman if he had some utility options in addition to the damage boost on a crit.

BRS seems like a good defensive option for Iaijutsu Strike (get the bad guys out of melee range so they can't retaliate), but depending on battlefield terrain it could come up in other scenarios. So a nice to have thing that allows my character to do some fun positioning when it comes up.

Later on, Great Bull Rush Strike would be nice for giving AoOs to party members as the mooks fly by them too :)

Cornugon Smash + Hurtful is indeed a great combo for this character. My only hesitation there is on relying on it too much. Every time I swing I could potentially be rolling ... let's see, once for the initial attack, then damage, then for the free Intimidate check, then if that passes rolling *again* for Hurtful's attack, then another damage roll ... But yeah, power-wise it's a great option!

[Mysterious Stranger]

As long as BRS is only one tool in your toolbox it is not a problem. But using it as the focal point of the build would be a mistake. Take BRS and its prerequisite feats. As long as the other feats you will be taking can do more than boost BRS you should be fine. Don’t bother with anymore feats that only work when you can do a BRS.

Conrugun Smash and Hurtful do not cost any actions to use and can be attempted with each attack. The only possible drawback is that the extra roll takes time. To avoid this, I would simply roll two d20 when you attack and designate one for the intimidate. If you miss hit check to see if the other roll was high enough demoralize the foe. If you miss ignore the second roll. A little planning can go a long way to speeding up the game.