Sundering and Bane

[Diego Rossi]

I am running an adventure with an unusual encounter. In a room, there are an Evil Outsider and a Construct. The Construct will constantly try to Sunder the PCs weapons.
One of the PCs is an Inquisitor with Greater Bane.

My problem is what will be the Hardness of the Inquisitor weapon:
- When Bane is inactive, there is no problem, it is a +3 Adamantine weapon, so 26.

When he uses Greater Bane against the outsider, the situation changes, the weapon is a +3, +7 vs Evil Outsiders. What is its Hardness against the Construct attacks at that point?
1) still 26, the Bane effect doesn't matter (this interpretation goes against the FAQs about Bane and bypassing DR);
2) still 26, Bane Evil Outsider doesn't matter against the Construct attacks;
3) 34, the weapon is a +7 weapon as long as the Greater Bane is in effect.

Personally, answer 2) seems the correct one to me, but I want to see other opinions with explanations.

Thanks.

[Java Man]

I'd only have the bane bonuses apply if the outsider were the one performing the sunder. Can't realy point at a rule citation, just seems correct.

[Pizza Lord]

The same. 26. The bane property counting as +x against a creature type means for purposes of bonuses to hit or damage or other effects that depend on the enhancement bonus against the creature (like an ability that dealt +2 damage per enhancement bonus to a creature struck). It doesn't apply to the creature type attacking it where it suddenly has extra hardness or hit points.

It would get complicated if a weapon had 20 hp normally and took 10 damage from a non-bane creature, then a bane creature hit it for 10 more, but it counted as having +x hp when attacked by the creature. Granted, you didn't mention hp, only hardness, but if hardness is allowed to improve (without being explicitly stated to), then technically hit points would too, and that would get weird.

Also, at 26 hardness, I don't think most weapons really have much to worry about unless the creature is already doing massive damage... in which case... it's almost better the wielder didn't get hit.

[Diego Rossi]

The hit points are a problem, but I wanted to focus on the Hardness first.

My interpretation is that the bane hit points are similar to the hit points granted by a temporary increase in constitution. As long as the weapon benefits from the Bane effect (even against a different opponent), they are there, but when that stops, they disappear while the damage stays.

The Inquisitor weapon will be impervious to the damage, the construct deals around 22-24 hp of damage, but the other PC's weapon will not be.
But the Cleric of Iomedae has Bless Equipment, so he can give Bane to the Barbarian's weapon and his own.

It will be an unusual battle, and a fairly long one. The Construct has a Hardness of 22 as it is an Animated Object (+1 Adamantine sword).

[Pizza Lord]

As an adamantine weapon, the Construct will ignore hardness less than 20 anyway. If the barbarian's weapon isn't already adamantine, it's likely steel or equivalent, so hardness 10. Each +1 adds 2 hardness, so if he has a +2 weapon, that's 14 hardness, even if the +2 from Bane applied, it would still be 18. So unless the weapon was mithral or already increased in hardness, it's likely a moot point (Though I still say it doesn't work for adding hardness and hit points just because the creature type hits it). Only if it was +3 or better might it become an issue.

Bane is still likely a really good choice, just for the bonus to hit and damage. As the GM, you could allow the impervious quality as one of the bless equipment options. As it doesn't have an enhancement cost, only a 3,000 gp addition which is comparable. It likely would be on the low end, like Bane, 2 charges of channel energy. That would double the hardness bonus per +1 of the weapon, so depending on that, it would get +4 hardness at +1, or +8 hardness if was +2. Still not enough to get a steel weapon up to 20 though for purposes of being bypassed by adamantine.

Or if there's time (3 days), they can get that enchanted on it anyway.

[Diego Rossi]

Pizza Lord wrote:

As an adamantine weapon, the Construct will ignore hardness less than 20 anyway. If the barbarian's weapon isn't already adamantine, it's likely steel or equivalent, so hardness 10. Each +1 adds 2 hardness, so if he has a +2 weapon, that's 14 hardness, even if the +2 from Bane applied, it would still be 18. So unless the weapon was mithral or already increased in hardness, it's likely a moot point (Though I still say it doesn't work for adding hardness and hit points just because the creature type hits it). Only if it was +3 or better might it become an issue.

Bane is still likely a really good choice, just for the bonus to hit and damage. As the GM, you could allow the impervious quality as one of the bless equipment options. As it doesn't have an enhancement cost, only a 3,000 gp addition which is comparable. It likely would be on the low end, like Bane, 2 charges of channel energy. That would double the hardness bonus per +1 of the weapon, so depending on that, it would get +4 hardness at +1, or +8 hardness if was +2. Still not enough to get a steel weapon up to 20 though for purposes of being bypassed by adamantine.

Or if there's time (3 days), they can get that enchanted on it anyway.

Good suggestion. If the players think of it or some other solution, I will be happy to allow it.

I allow the Hardening spell from the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, even if it is a 3.5 spell, but currently no one has access to it, nor is it something the sorcerer will ever learn.

[Mysterious Stranger]

I have to agree with Pizza Lord on this. Bane specifies that the enchantment bonus increase is only against the designated foe, and does not change the actual enchantment bonus. The reason you get the bonus to hit and damage is a weakness in the target, and not due to any actual change in the weapon. A Bane weapon is specifically enchanted to be able to deal damage vs the targets type; this enchantment includes overcoming DR of the creature’s type. Personally I would not even increase the hardness against a creature of the designated type.

All Greater Bane does is to increase the bonus dice from 2d6 to 4d6, it does not increase the enchantment bonus at all. So, the weapon would be considered a +5, not a +7.

[Belafon]

Quoting this fact first to clarify the numbers

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

All Greater Bane does is to increase the bonus dice from 2d6 to 4d6, it does not increase the enchantment bonus at all. So, the weapon would be considered a +5, not a +7.

I would say that the "right" answer is that when the inquisitor uses bane or greater bane, the weapon has a hardness of 30 vs. natural attacks from the type of creature baned. 26 vs. all other attacks, included manufactured weapon attacks from the bane target type.

Hit points is an a completely different kettle of fish. I personally wouldn't apply any additional hit points because then you potentially get into three messy conditions:
1) total damage from bane targets vs. non-bane (especially if he switches bane types during the fight)
2) "Cycling" where, a few rounds into the fight, he has swift actions to spare and lets the bane end, then starts it back again immediately just to refresh a new 20 HP.
3) Natural vs manufactured attacks from the bane target type.

[Azothath]

back to basics are people have gone off into the weeds-

Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points:

Weapon or Shield | Hardness¹ | Hit Points²³ .
Lgt blade | 10 | 2 .
1hnd blade | 10 | 5 .
2hnd blade | 10 | 10 .
etc
(¹)Add +2 for each +1 enhancement bonus of magic items. {Note: this can vary in meaning as a plain 'plus' enhancement bonus rather than the enhancement equivalent of some qualities like Holy or Acidic Burst etc.}
(²)The hp value given is for Medium armor, weapons, and shields. Divide by 2 for each size category of the item smaller than Medium, or multiply it by 2 for each size category larger than Medium.
(³)Add 10 hp for each +1 enhancement bonus of magic items. {Note: this can vary in meaning as a plain 'plus' enhancement bonus rather than the enhancement equivalent of some qualities like Holy or Acidic Burst etc.}
(⁴)Varies by material; {Note:should be next to (¹) in Hardness column}

Rules-Explore-Breaking and Entering-Smashing an Object on AoN.
===end===

Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon’s enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against such foes. To randomly determine a weapon’s designated foe, roll on the following table. note the word "actual" and I use that to dismiss other temporary derivative bonuses/changes other than those detailed/commonly used in the description which would be hit (damage). The Game isn't detailed or expansive so just take what they paraphrased from DnD3.5 in context.
Weapon Quality Bane(+1) on AoN.
different than spells like bear's endurance:T2 on creatures.

Overcoming DR:

DR Type | Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent .
Cold Iron/Silver | +3 .
Adamantine* | +4 .
Alignment-based | +5 .

Rules-Combat-Special Abilities-Damage Reduction on AoN.
===end===

so;
 A{all enhc} +2 enhc (+1)bane adamantine 1hnd blade weapon Hrd:26(=20+3*2), HP:36(=(4/3)*5+3*10). {Which I think is correct and the Overcoming DR supports}
and for some;
 B{only "plus"} +2 enhc (+1)bane adamantine 1hnd blade weapon Hrd:24(=20+2*2), HP:26(=(4/3)*5+2*10).

=====
I'll reserve comment on the tactics of the scenario...

[Azothath]

Diego Rossi wrote:

...

It will be an unusual battle, and a fairly long one. The Construct has a Hardness of 22 as it is an Animated Object (+1 Adamantine sword).

Construct-Animated Objects have a lot of Rules scattered about;

Animated Object (construct) entry
Building and Modifying Constructs
New Animated Object Abilities
Advanced template can be applied.
Commando construct template (CR+1,+2) Feats is an awesome choice.
CM Improved Sunder (feat) falls into about +1 CP.

Weapons
Swordbreaker Dagger (1d4) {blades}, Sai (1d4) {weapons}, Tekko-kagi (1d3) {swords/lgt blades}, Lucerne hammer (1d12) {med & hvy armor}, Piston maul, gnome(or as Greatclub) (1d10), Flambard(or as Bastard sword) 50gp (1d10) {wood haft}.

[Diego Rossi]

Belafon wrote:

Quoting this fact first to clarify the numbers

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

All Greater Bane does is to increase the bonus dice from 2d6 to 4d6, it does not increase the enchantment bonus at all. So, the weapon would be considered a +5, not a +7.

I would say that the "right" answer is that when the inquisitor uses bane or greater bane, the weapon has a hardness of 30 vs. natural attacks from the type of creature baned. 26 vs. all other attacks, included manufactured weapon attacks from the bane target type.

Hit points is an a completely different kettle of fish. I personally wouldn't apply any additional hit points because then you potentially get into three messy conditions:
1) total damage from bane targets vs. non-bane (especially if he switches bane types during the fight)
2) "Cycling" where, a few rounds into the fight, he has swift actions to spare and lets the bane end, then starts it back again immediately just to refresh a new 20 HP.
3) Natural vs manufactured attacks from the bane target type.

The Construct is an Animated weapon, so it attacks with its "body".

I would allow the hit points, but they will be be same you get from an increase in constitution, not temporary hit points. You couldn't cycle them for extra hit points. Increasing the bonus of the weapon increases the total weapon HPs, and decreasing the bonus decreases the total weapon HPs. It doesn't give temporary HPs.

[Diego Rossi]

Azothath wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

...

It will be an unusual battle, and a fairly long one. The Construct has a Hardness of 22 as it is an Animated Object (+1 Adamantine sword).

Construct-Animated Objects have a lot of Rules scattered about;

It is a third-party product, with some rules for that particular type of Animated Weapon.

I think that your calculations for the Hardness are off. Special Abilities, by themselves, don't add Harness or HPs.

Magic Items - Weapons wrote:

Hardness and Hit Points: Each +1 of a magic weapon’s
enhancement bonus adds +2 to its hardness and +10 to its hit
points. See also Table 7–12 on page 175.

CRB table 7-12 wrote:

Weapon or Shield Hardness (1) Hit Points (2, 3)
...
1 Add +2 for each +1 enhancement bonus of magic items.
2 The hp value given is for Medium armor, weapons, and shields. Divide by 2 for each size category of the item smaller than Medium, or multiply it by 2 for each size category larger than Medium.
3 Add 10 hp for each +1 enhancement bonus of magic items.

The Inquisitor weapon is +3 and it becomes +7 (Greater bane) against a specific opponent.

So:
- hardness of a +3 adamantine weapon = 26
- harness of a +3 adamantine weapon with Greater bane active (i.e. a +7 weapon against the right target)= 34 against attempts to sunder made with the "body" of the target.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The 30 is correct because greater bane does not increase the enchantment bonus, all it does is to add an additional 2d6 for damage for a total of 4d6. The enchantment bonus is still only +2 higher than normal.

[Azothath]

in reply to my first post giving A or B values for detailed enhancements(which may not be the exact ones in your question as you did not give sufficient details).

Diego Rossi wrote:

I think that your calculations for the Hardness are off. Special Abilities, by themselves, don't add Harness or HPs.

so that puts you in B.

Adding temp hardness or HPs is your GM decision as RAW does not specifically imply that with the use of 'actual' in the Overcoming DR text. That's why I added it to my initial post.

The Common Hrd & HP table(see above) does not include the superscript note for special materials until the armor row, thus my note in the spoiler. All (steel/iron) blades have hardness 10 so there is no prorating/scaling of hardness thus adamantdne moves it to a 20 base. For scaled values of hardness (like 5) you could prorate the table's value or average wood and the chosen material.
Forgetting the change in hit points for special materials is common. Just review Smashing Objects. Use the hp/inch to determine the ratio from common weapons(using steel/iron & wood- the assumption in the Common Hrd & HP table).

[Diego Rossi]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The 30 is correct because greater bane does not increase the enchantment bonus, all it does is to add an additional 2d6 for damage for a total of 4d6. The enchantment bonus is still only +2 higher than normal.

Ouch. That reminds me again to check stuff before going from memory, especially after midnight.

Thanks for the correction.