Howdy! It's been a while since I've played Pathfinder, but it looks like I might be getting a chance to try the remastered rules soon. I'm planning on creating a divine caster of Desna, and I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice here.
We only have the original 3 core books available (yes, I know there's AoN, but we'd like to just use the stuff we actually spent money on), so I'm looking at Cloistered Cleric alongside Faith Witch for my class. Not sure which to try, cuz I'm having trouble appraising the focus spells/deity spells and class feats, but both seem like they could be fun (I'm also only JUST NOW noticing that Clerics don't rely on Charisma anymore).
Also wondering about good ancestries. Like I said, only Player Core for PCs, so I'm thinking about grabbing a versatile heritage since we've got limits on choice. Any suggestions? I was thinking about an Angelkin or Musetouched Nephilim to represent Elysium ancestry, but I don't know.
Any and all help is appreciated :)
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Many would argue clerics are one of the top 4 classes in the game, and it is hard to argue against 4+ top level heals per day. Witch can be quite strong as well, but compared to the cleric will have less slots, less HP, and will know less spells to prepare. If you're hung up on optimization that could feel bad. The only divine patron isn't as strong as the occult options either.
That said, the witch would be totally viable, especially if you have a front line Fighter in the party. They will benefit enormously from the extra damage and temp HP you hand out. (Where as a barbarian would benefit much less.) There's also roleplay considerations. A witch doesn't even need to worship Desna or follow her edicts, but would have an emissary of Desna there nagging you about it if you didn't. Could be fun, or could be annoying. If you wanted to be a traditional devotee, cleric would be simpler.
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Divine Mysteries is bringing two new Divine Witch Patrons*. I think Faith's Flamekeeper (the original) might be the best fit for Desna, though. I'd say Faith's Flamekeeper is a pretty decent patron, too- The only outlier that outshines it is Resentment, and then only if you really build around it.
*The new options are The choic Politic, which is less combat focused, and Paradox of Opposites, which focuses on oppositional forces and seems better for Pharasma or Nethys.
Edit: I didn't remember the Player Core 1 restriction. That rules out the upcoming patrons. I stand by my defense of Faith's Flamekeeper, though.
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As a GM I find Desna a fun god to roleplay. I treat her as celebrating the world, encouraging people to travel to see the beauty but also to fix troubles on the way.
When I took over my wife's Rise of the Runelord's campaign in 2011 due to her health problems, she rejoined the campaign when healthier as a player with a lyrakien bard who worked as an emissary of Desna, because this would excuse any accidental slips of inside knowledge. This led to a lot of casual interaction with Desna over cups of hot chocolate in a small café in Elysium. Playing a Nephilim from Elysium could lead to similar backstories about hanging around with a amiable goddess and other friendly divine beings before traveling to Golarion to see the world. I personally prefer Angelkin heritage to Musetouched heritage because clerics are trained in only Relgion, the diety's skill (Acrobatics for Desna), a background skill, and 2+INT more skills, so the Angelkin's training in Society helps relieve their shortage of skills.
What is the baseline species?
Tarondor has updated their cleric guide to cover the remastered rules: Tarondor’s Guide to the Pathfinder Second Edition (REMASTERED) Cleric, so let's talk cleric. The Cloistered cleric is considered harder to play than the Warpriest cleric because the cloistered cleric has only unarmored defense and is almost as easy to kill as a wizard. Nevertheless, the Cloistered Cleric starts with a focus spell and has better spell proficiency at higher levels, so that is the doctrine for a cleric who wants to concentrate on casting spells.
Wisdom is the most important ability score for Cloistered Clerics. Dexterity adds to AC and complements the Acrobatics skill from Desna. Thus, chose a background that enhances Wisdom or Dexterity. And the skill training granted by the background will be one of the cleric's few skills, so chose wisely. Though chosing Acrobatic or Relgion (or Society for an Angelkin) would switch to a skill of your choice, so that is good, too. Raised by Belief would fit a character raised in Elysium.
Desna's luck and travel domains were great in Pathfinder 1st Edition, but they are merely good in Pathfinder 2nd Edition. Bit of Luck from Luck Domain is handy if the cleric knows that an upcoming saving throw will be important, such as trying to recover from disease. [url="https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1838"Agile Feet[/url] from Travel Domain can keep the cleric safe with mobility. On the other hand, I favor Moonbeam from Moon Domain to give the Cloistered Cleric a solid offensive move.
What is the baseline species?
I was thinking about human, gnome, or halfling.
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Howdy! It's been a while since I've played Pathfinder, but it looks like I might be getting a chance to try the remastered rules soon. I'm planning on creating a divine caster of Desna, and I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice here.
We only have the original 3 core books available (yes, I know there's AoN, but we'd like to just use the stuff we actually spent money on), so I'm looking at Cloistered Cleric alongside Faith Witch for my class. Not sure which to try, cuz I'm having trouble appraising the focus spells/deity spells and class feats, but both seem like they could be fun (I'm also only JUST NOW noticing that Clerics don't rely on Charisma anymore).
Also wondering about good ancestries. Like I said, only Player Core for PCs, so I'm thinking about grabbing a versatile heritage since we've got limits on choice. Any suggestions? I was thinking about an Angelkin or Musetouched Nephilim to represent Elysium ancestry, but I don't know.
Any and all help is appreciated :)
Desna is interesting as a Cleric, and gets some solid Domains between Moon, Luck, and Travel. Moon comes with a solid damage focus spell with a potent buff spell as an Advanced Domain. Luck is nice for boosting ally's saves, as well as a nice Reaction for yourself later on down the line. Travel is awesome for movement for yourself, giving yourself bonus movement, or the ability to swim and eventually Fly as a focus spell, are both solid.
Faith Witch? Is this a Free archetype/dual class game, or are you wanting to invest class feats into a Witch dedication? Not trying to hate on the decision, but it's a little surprising, as there are honestly better dedications to take as a Cleric, such as Druid dedication (being able to pick up some nukes/buffs/debuffs from the Primal list is nice), or Medic dedication (having some non-magical healing options is imperative as well, and you can wombo-combo them with your magic as well for some super healing). Some of the Primal spells can also synergize quite well with Desna' schtick, so it's not a bad idea IMO. If Faith Witch wasn't Intelligence-based, I wouldn't question it as much.
Human has solid ancestry feat choices, between Natural Ambition (1st level class feat, awesome for Cleric), General Training, and eventually Multitalented. Gnome is solid for Lore skills and some Illusion benefits, but that's more for Intelligence-based/Arcane benefits, with some slight options for Primal effects, meaning you will lean more into Nephilim for feat choices here; the big draw is getting innate Darkvision thanks to Nephilim. Halflings have focus on sneaking and Luck-based effects (which can lead into Desna's Luck Domain effects), so it's definitely passable. Just remember for Halfling and Gnome that you will probably need to be careful of your carrying capacity due to that Strength penalty.
For Heritages, Musetouched is nice for a spellcaster with Acrobatics training, since it makes it easier for you to break out in case a big bad grabs/eats you. Angelkin is more of a societal/Intelligence thing, since it improves Society and grants the Multilingual feat, and being Wisdom-based (or Charisma-based), you got better skills to focus on, between either Medicine, Religion, Survival, Nature, etc.
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I always finds your posts very insightful Captain. I agree with your view of the Cleric as being one of the better classes currently. What are the other three classes?Many would argue clerics are one of the top 4 classes in the game, and it is hard to argue against 4+ top level heals per day. Witch can be quite strong as well, but compared to the cleric will have less slots, less HP, and will know less spells to prepare. If you're hung up on optimization that could feel bad. The only divine patron isn't as strong as the occult options either.
That said, the witch would be totally viable, especially if you have a front line Fighter in the party. They will benefit enormously from the extra damage and temp HP you hand out. (Where as a barbarian would benefit much less.) There's also roleplay considerations. A witch doesn't even need to worship Desna or follow her edicts, but would have an emissary of Desna there nagging you about it if you didn't. Could be fun, or could be annoying. If you wanted to be a traditional devotee, cleric would be simpler.
Happy to hear that. :) I think people argue that bard, rogue, cleric, and fighter are as good as it gets. I often find those opinions a bit overstated myself-- I really don't think the difference between a fighter and a barbarian or even a ranger is big enough to get hung up on. Almost every class has at least one thing it does better than any other, so if you build to that strength you'll have a good time. Party coordination and turn to turn tactics will make a much bigger difference than having a witch or a bard in most parties.
Pick a list casters are in a weird spot though. I always wind up comparing any given subclass to other subclasses with different lists and to entirely different classes that use the same class. It is a higher level of scrutiny. And while the occult witch patrons are broadly all very useful, the non-occult patrons are quite party dependent.