Grenades

[Driftbourne]

We know from the Wave 3 errata blog post that the developers are reviewing overall mechanics for grenades and missiles, but are aren’t not quite ready to act on yet. So seems like a good time to talk about grenades.

For me the main issue with the new grenade rules was the way saving throws work creatures in extreme encounters were immune to grenades due to high reflex saves.

But there was lots to like about the new rules too.

1: 30 range, this helps a lot with higher-level grenades with a larger radious. In SF1e it can be hard to use a higher-level grenades without hitting yourself or someone else in your party. Might be nice for grenades with bigger radius to be able to use an action to adjust the radius

2: I like that grenades became simple weapons so all classes can use them. Being consumables they are a great way to fill gaps in characters or parts available damage types or other effects, without being something used every round or every combat.

3: Bouncing grenades off a solid surface is great and fun.

4: I like the new smoke grenades, but I like the old smoke grenades too they serve different purposes, I'd like to see both be kept and just rename one of them. I wonder if the new smoke grenade should give concealment from ranged attack line of sight passing throw the area of effect.

In general, I like that grenades don't just have to be a source of damage many are problem lovers. I've used a sticky bomb grenade to prevent a crowd from rushing a stage once. I've used holo grenades as distractions, for making a dramatic point during a trial, and once used a holo grenade for species effects while trying to entertain a crowd.

[Justnobodyfqwl]

I think the ease of use for grenades and availability of different flavors is super fun. The damage dealing ones don't seem as fun or even as useful as the non-damage ones- my imagination really gets going with the smoke and flashbang grenades. However, I realize they're mostly just convenient ways to give a party access to damage types they normally don't have stocked.

I think the action economy is interesting around them, too. One action to do an area fire attack sounds too good to be true, but makes sense when you need an action to switch to them/swap hands. Grenade launchers on weapons are an easy way to shoot one per fight as one action, and reusable grenade shells are an easy way to save on grenade use. (I absolutely LOVE love love that reusable grenade shells are space footballs. It's such a little unessential bit of flavor that immediately inspires roleplay and character concepts).

[Teridax]

I think there's a lot of room to expand on grenades. The issue of their DC I think needs to be addressed at some point -- Area Fire isn't that great at letting grenades deal worthwhile damage -- but in general there's a huge range of different effects that could be attached to grenades to make them a consistent source of utility. I agree with the OP: although we think of grenades typically as instances of big explosive damage, in a high-tech world they're capable of so much more. There's definitely room to explore more persistent and delayed effects to grenades, in my opinion, so that you can get a bit of area control in a can.

[Driftbourne]

The idea of using delayed grenades to cause opponents to move out of the way before the grenade goes off is interesting. Although I like it, it does have to downside of wasting a grenade without it doing any damage, and then there's nothing saying the opponents won't just return to cover the next round. I also if that might lead to players throwing fake grenades to scare opponents away.

The SF1e smoke grenade worked good for getting people out of cover and keeping them out I hope that is brought back and maybe renamed as an irritant smoke grenade.

Another idea is when people in real life dodge grenades they are not just shifting in place to doge it but are diving or jumping out of the way, so maybe as a reaction to a grenade anyone in the area of effect has to move 5 feet away from the impact point of the grenade, or drop prone. Anyone choosing not to or can't move due to not having anywhere to go, either takes a penalty to their saving throw or reduces the effectiveness of their roll.

There's been lots of talk about hardness in other threads, anti-hardness grenadea would be good to have too. Could be flavored as mining explosives, or demolition charges. I like the idea of a cold grenade or some other effect that would make hardness brittle, and make hardness get reduced in its effectiveness as it gets hit, hardness of 10 takes 3 points of damage and becomes hardness 7

[DMurnett]

Driftbourne wrote:

I also if that might lead to players throwing fake grenades to scare opponents away.

Actually that sounds like a really fun idea for a feat for martials (probably primarily Soldier.) Like... Grenade Feint, lets you throw a grenade without arming it in hopes of flushing out a foe without wanting to waste a grenade. You make a Deception (maybe Intimidation?) check and if you succeed the foe(s?) is Fleeing from the grenade. Mental, Emotion, Fear.

[Driftbourne]

Just thought of a downside to throwing a delayed grenade to scare the opponent out of cover. If they have 3 actions why not just pick up the grenade and throw it back?

There still might be times when a delayed grenade might be useful.

I think using a fake grenade would likely only work once per encounter.

[Justnobodyfqwl]

I don't really think you need to over-think the mechanics of the slow release grenade idea too much. Ideally, it would be a simple and low-level way to communicate to new players the advantages of positioning and zoning in combat.

Ideally, the main thing that would keep the opponent from going back to cover would be teamwork- your allies were waiting for the opponent to leave cover and have riddled them with bullets, restrained them, or even just moved into the spot themselves.

[Driftbourne]

Just thought of one of the most important uses for delayed grenades, dropping them close to yourself and having time to move away. I play a mystic who mostly uses grenades and area effect spells in combat, and this comes up all the time.

Another advantage of grenades that have the effect of moving the opponents the same round the grenade goes off is in a 3-action economy is you could draw the grenade, throw the grenade, and then shoot at the target after they are clear of the cover.

I'm wondering if the timing a when the grenade might matter in a 3 action 3-action economy. For example, you are in the grenade radius when you attack.
◆ throw grenade
◆ move
◆ Shoot

Does the grenade go off on your first action or after you moved or after your turn? This could act as a personal delay to get out of the way, but not for the rest of your team unless they had some kind of reaction letting them move out of the way.

I just noticed that the Incendiary grenade has this special effect,
"If you have the critical weapon specialization of grenades, creatures who critically fail their saving throw against incendiary grenades are knocked away from the grenade."

So using the same actions again as an example
◆ throw grenade
◆ move
◆ Shoot

If you resolve each action one at a time then on a crit you could for the target into the open for the shot on your turn. So here timing of the grenade going off is very important. Googling real grenades looks like the the average grenade goes off in 3 to 6 seconds. So not likely on the same action as throwing a grenade, but could be during or after the rest of the player's turn. Breaking grenade timing down into 1/3s of action might be a bit much, but it would be good to know if goes off during or right at the end of the player throwing its turn.

Side note on Incendiary grenade special effect, requiring a critical grenade weapon specialization. I like the idea of grenades being simple weapons everyone can use to pick up an extra damage type or problem solver, but I also like the grenade weapon specialization used for special effects to give a grenade focus character build some advantage to it.