Magus Spell Combat + Spellstrike clarification

[Pygon]

I have a hard time combining a couple of abilities and realizing their implications until someone else tells me about it. While at GenCon, I was told there was a vague area about how the Magus can or cannot combine Spell Combat and Spellstrike.

Spell Combat allows the Magus to treat a casted spell as an offhand attack, which in essence lets them cast a spell at -2 to attack where applicable, and also swing with their blade at -2.

Spellstrike allows you to deliver a touch attack using your blade, which gives the spell the advantage of using the crit range of your weapon (cough, keen!).

And in Core RAW, you can cast a touch spell, then step or walk over and perform the touch.

So, to take this combo to the max...

- Can a magus cast shocking grasp, step 5', and use Spell Combat + Spellstrike to swing once with the blade to deliver the shocking grasp at -2 to hit, and swing yet again with the blade at -2 for the second attack, also delivering the shocking grasp if the first attack misses? (bear in mind I assume the blade attacks are actual swings, not simply touch attacks, so I'm trying to hit the full AC of the target here and cause blade damage + the shocking grasp, as long as it isn't already discharged).

What of this combo can I NOT do?

Also, just to be really cheesy...

- If the victim has metal on them, does the blade attack get +3, as in the shocking grasp spell description? (Just a curiosity, I'm thinking no).

Thanks for any help.

[james maissen]

Pygon wrote:

While at GenCon, I was told there was a vague area about how the Magus can or cannot combine Spell Combat and Spellstrike.

- Can a magus cast shocking grasp, step 5', and use Spell Combat + Spellstrike to swing once with the blade to deliver the shocking grasp at -2 to hit, and swing yet again with the blade at -2 for the second attack, also delivering the shocking grasp if the first attack misses?

What of this combo can I NOT do?

I don't see any 'vague area' here.

Of course you can do this, and there's no 'cheese' involved though people tend to ascribe that label upon anything and everything these days. It seems exactly as intended and as written.

-James

[Jason Stormblade]

I have to admit, there has been quite a lot of confusion at our table regarding the actions of the magus class.

The example above implies to me that a 4th level magus would then have three attacks that round - the spell, free 5-step, attack #1, attack #2.

By the way, I am still relatively new to PF and come from 2nd Edition, so the combat round stuff is still a little wonky for me.

I had thought that Spell Combat acting as TWF would mean that the magus could either:

1) Swing for full BAB and if it hits channel a spell through the weapon with SC

2) Swing weapon at -2, cast a spell at -2

Would someone more knowledgeable of this mind running through it for my sake and that of the OP?

Thanks

[james maissen]

Jason Stormblade wrote:

I have to admit, there has been quite a lot of confusion at our table regarding the actions of the magus class.

The example above implies to me that a 4th level magus would then have three attacks that round - the spell, free 5-step, attack #1, attack #2.

By the way, I am still relatively new to PF and come from 2nd Edition, so the combat round stuff is still a little wonky for me.

Would someone more knowledgeable of this mind running through it for my sake and that of the OP?

Thanks

Okay Magus (4th level) starts his turn wielding a +1 rapier but not adjacent to Target.

As a swift action the Magus uses his pool to increase his weapon by a +1, making it essentially a +2 rapier.

As his other hand is empty he declares a full round action 'spell combat'.

As part of spell combat he can cast a spell either before or after his normal full attack routine... the Magus elects to cast 'before'.

Magus casts 'shocking grasp' in this fashion. He is not being threatened by anyone so does not choose to cast defensively.

He is given a free action attack by virtue of casting a touch spell. He can either do so via a touch attack or (via his spellstrike ability) a normal rapier attack.

He first takes a 5' step so that he is now adjacent to Target. You are allowed to take a 5' step during a full round action, and he does so.

He elects to take his free action attack now and further elects to do so via the rapier attack (at -2 due to being in a spell combat). Sadly he rolls like I do and misses. Per the rules on missing with a touch attack, the charge is still held.

Now the magus has his normal full attack routine available. For a 4th level magus with a 3BAB this is normally just 1 attack, but if he were hasted he would get 2 attacks here.

The first hit (if any) discharges that held shocking grasp spell that can be delivered via the rapier from the magus ability 'spellstrike'.

So the magus by casting a spell would get 2 rapier attacks or possibly a 3rd if he is hasted.

How does that work for you? Does it make sense?

-James

[Jason Stormblade]

That was a great example, thanks James.

So it seems like their is no advantage to not casting a spell. If you simply went with melee, the above magus would get 1 melee attack.

By using spell combat each and every round they will always get 2 melee and 1 spell correct?

[LazarX]

He forfeits the free attack as it is part of the casting routine and he is not in melee. He can get the spellstrike when he closes it when he discharges the spell on the hit in the melee sequence. as long as he moves no more than 5 foot. He still has to make the concentration check if he's casting the spell as part of spell combat. In that scenario he gets his spell off the standard melee attack in which he can use his spellstrike.

To get the maximum amount of attacks possible he would have to be in melee in the entire sequence.

He would THEN be able to cast, get the free spellstrike as part of the casting action and then get his standard melee attack sequence.

The amount of melee strikes you get can be situational, some of them will depend on the spell being cast. Fire Snake for instance does not give you a free "touch" attack so you'd only have the normal melee in addition.

You're still getting better action economy than anyone else though.

[Jason Stormblade]

So a concentration check is always required for spell combat, that is the price of the extra actions correct?

Second, this would effectively scale up so that at 20th level a magus using spell combat would receive the three standard attacks, plus the spell and free attack right?

[Pygon]

Jason Stormblade wrote:

By using spell combat each and every round they will always get 2 melee and 1 spell correct?

I would say you only get 2 melee attacks as long as the spell you cast has a touch attack involved.

I'm not sure on LazarX's requirement that you would need to be in melee range the whole time, since you can step 5' between attacks when using a full attack with TWF, and Spell combat treats the cast as an offhand attack. Plus, you can cast, step 5', then touch when normally casting a touch attack spell.

[Jason Stormblade]

The PostMonster General wrote:

I would say you only get 2 melee attacks as long as the spell you cast has a touch attack involved.

But that second attack does standard weapon damage (+ or - modifiers) plus the effects of the spell, Shocking Grasp dmg, etc. so a scimitar would do 1d6 weapon + 2d6 spell damage?

[Pygon]

If the first blade swing successfully hits, it will do scimitar damage plus shocking grasp damage. Then the second scimitar swing would only do scimitar damage because the touch was discharged.

[leo1925]

What most of the others have said is correct.
I don't know who said to you that it's vague, he clearly is wrong.
During the last playtest phase the magus had a sentence that said that you can't use spellstrike and spellcombat together.
When a preview to UM came we saw the final wording of spellcombat and that sentence was missing, and Jason (irrc) said that the change was intentional.

Now the only part of the rules that isn't 100% clear is whether you can discharge the spell in your following attack when you spell combat (in case the first one fails), i am of the same mind as the others and i believe that (during spell combat) you can discharge your spellstrike spell in the first of your following attacks that hit (in case the first).

Yes you can do your 5 foot step trick for not having to roll concentration BUT remember that spellcombat is full round and you are allowed only one 5 foot step per round, so this trick isn't always easy to pull off.

I don't know why LazarX said that a magus doing spell combat has to make a concentration check no matter what.

[james maissen]

Jason Stormblade wrote:

That was a great example, thanks James.

So it seems like their is no advantage to not casting a spell. If you simply went with melee, the above magus would get 1 melee attack.

By using spell combat each and every round they will always get 2 melee and 1 spell correct?

You have to make a concentration check or provoke an AOO. If you don't successfully cast the spell then you don't get the extra attack.

You only have so many spells to burn (beyond arcane mark or the like).

And you take a -2 to hit when you do so.

So there are costs associated with it, as opposed to say a Monk using flurry of blows where there's really no downside when full attacking.

But I think that your counting is off, unless by 2 melee and 1 spell, you mean 1 melee and a melee plus touch spell combo. I think you are meaning the right thing, but I wanted to make sure that you didn't think it was something like 'spell combat gives an extra attack so I can spell combat the shield spell and get an extra attack' because you don't.

-James

[james maissen]

LazarX wrote:

He forfeits the free attack as it is part of the casting routine and he is not in melee.

To get the maximum amount of attacks possible he would have to be in melee in the entire sequence.

You are incorrect.

-James

[Jason Stormblade]

James Maissen wrote:

But I think that your counting is off, unless by 2 melee and 1 spell, you mean 1 melee and a melee plus touch spell combo. I think you are meaning the right thing, but I wanted to make sure that you didn't think it was something like 'spell combat gives an extra attack so I can spell combat the shield spell and get an extra attack' because you don't.

If you are referring to what I said above about the 20th level magus I meant that they are given three attacks on their growth table, ending at (+15/+10/+5), plus the spell touch combo. Is this not right?

James Maissen wrote:

You only have so many spells to burn (beyond arcane mark or the like).

So this is where folks are debating about how legal it is to use Arcane Mark - with unlimited cantrips the magus can flurry using this every round without any limiting factor. If it had to be with Shocking Grasp or something the finite number of level 1 spells would limit the daily flurries.

[leo1925]

Jason Stormblade wrote:

James Maissen wrote:

You only have so many spells to burn (beyond arcane mark or the like).

So this is where folks are debating about how legal it is to use Arcane Mark - with unlimited cantrips the magus can flurry using this every round without any limiting factor. If it had to be with Shocking Grasp or something the finite number of level 1 spells would limit the daily flurries.

Although i agree that this use of arcane mark is debatable, close range arcana + ray of frost gives you unlimited number of spell combat.

Although IMO is better to use the magical lineage (shocking grasp) + 1st level pearls of power (and/or spell recall) combo.

[james maissen]

Jason Stormblade wrote:

If you are referring to what I said above about the 20th level magus I meant that they are given three attacks on their growth table, ending at (+15/+10/+5), plus the spell touch combo. Is this not right?

Sure, but I wasn't talking about a 20th level magus.. hence our confusion I guess.

Jason Stormblade wrote:

James Maissen wrote:

You only have so many spells to burn (beyond arcane mark or the like).

So this is where folks are debating about how legal it is to use Arcane Mark - with unlimited cantrips the magus can flurry using this every round without any limiting factor.

Well you have to be able to successfully cast the cantrip, and then you take the -2 to hit with a one-handed weapon and your other hand free.

At which point you are worse off than a monk who gets a full BAB when doing this without cost.

You might as well join in how acid splash is over-powered in that it can deal unlimited damage.. just 1d3 at a time...

-James

[Jason Stormblade]

Don't get me wrong at all James, I have no opinion one way or the other on it being kosher. In fact, since I'm playing the magus I'll go with a resounding hell yes!

I'm debating on taking closeness for the ray spells to use, but I'm also looking at third party books to see if their is a damaging spell that is touch and 0 level.

[Pygon]

Which brings to mind another potentially FAQable question.

Should Spellstrike require at least a level 1 touch spell? Otherwise a magus could infinitely get 2 attacks per round with a blade at 2nd level using Spell Combat + Spellstrike by casting a level 0 touch spell.

[leo1925]

Pygon wrote:

Which brings to mind another potentially FAQable question.

Should Spellstrike require at least a level 1 touch spell? Otherwise a magus could infinitely get 2 attacks with a blade at 2nd level using Spell Combat + Spellstrike.

Why do you need a FAQ for that?

And no it shouldn't.
Yes magi have built in TWF.
Also IF the arcane mark thing doesn't work then you to wait for 3rd level in order to get the close range arcana.

[james maissen]

Pygon wrote:

Which brings to mind another potentially FAQable question.

Should Spellstrike require at least a level 1 touch spell? Otherwise a magus could infinitely get 2 attacks per round with a blade at 2nd level using Spell Combat + Spellstrike by casting a level 0 touch spell.

Why not, it's markedly weaker than a monk's flurry of blows.

Is a monk not spending ki, not getting full BAB on the attack, and needing to make a DC 15 concentration check overpowered??? Because we all know how over-powered Monks are...

I mean, really??

Really?

And without some decent rays, I would go with picking up two 0 level spells instead (take message as the other one, it's nice). Touch of fatigue should qualify as a touch attack, but perhaps not to some people...

Btw, how is arcane mark not 'Range: touch' in the first place? A living person certainly is a valid target as the spell expressly addresses what happens when they are effected by it.

This has got to be up there with the original cries of the Mystic Theurge PrC being over powered when it first came out.

Pygon wrote:

Otherwise a magus could infinitely get 2 attacks per round with a blade at 2nd level using Spell Combat + Spellstrike by casting a level 0 touch spell.

And wizards are overpowered because they can cast acid splash 'infinitely' often for 1d3 damage! No other reason.. just that.

It's ludicrous.

-James