Primary Target says: "This Strike uses the same multiple attack penalty as your Area Fire or Auto-Fire action but doesn’t count toward your multiple attack penalty."
Punishing Salvo says: This does not make a new area attack, and is treated as a Strike made using primary target."
Emphasis mine.
So my question: Is the Punishing Salvo attack at -5 MAP? Or is it also at -0 like the attack from Primary Target?
Because if it's at -0, I have to say "area attack followed by two -0 attacks against whoever you like least" is a really crazy 3-action routine to be able to do every round.
Yeah that probably needs clarification, the wording kind of suggests at the same MAP as the Area or Auto-Fire Attack, since that is what Primary Target does. But it could also easily be seen as a similar attack but after your MAP has gone up.
Although after thinking about it, the second interpretation is good but not insane. Double Slice is two attacks at +0 for two actions; this is three actions for two attack at +0 plus a weak cantrip.
Maybe not as crazy as I originally thought.
To my understanding, neither Area Fire nor Auto-Fire increase MAP. So after a Primary Target -> Area Fire, your MAP is still 0, regardless of what you do next.
Punishing Salvo is exclusively useful if you are
(a) using an Area Fire-only (not melee) weapon or
(b) you're hasted, Close Quarters, and with a melee weapon.
RAW if you are a hasted Close Quarters Soldier, you could do in a round
>> Area Fire
Primary Target (MAP 0)
Area Fire (MAP not applicable)
> Punishing Salvo (MAP 0)
> regular Strike (MAP 0)
This is with a 2d12+4 doshko or 2d10+4 reach painglaive.
Which is insane. It blows out of the water any and all hasted low-MAP pathfinder builds.
Notes:
- Punishing Salvo does not work with automatic guns
- a regular Area Fire weapon can't do the final strike
- Punishing Salvo does not work with Shot on the Run due to a fairly obscure rule of "your last action" requirements vs. subordinate actions, which brings *some* sanity to this combo.
In theory you could make it work as a Bombard too, but the final Strike needs to be with a different weapon:
- Laser Eye for 2d4,
- Solarian Dedication -> Solar Flare for 2d6 30ft/2d8 15ft,
- or some other ranged weapon that doesn't require hands.
...and if my table allows to play a Tengu from Pathfinder, or an ancestry is printed at some point with the right weapon familiarity, oh look I have a 2d8+4 fatal d12 grindblade and a free hand. Hitting 4 times in a round at MAP 0.
Or if they allow a greatpick from Pathfinder (why wouldn't they? _It's a mining tool_), 2d10+4 fatal d12.
I stand corrected: the above melee exploit does not work specifically due to the obscure rule about subordinated actions.
Close Quarters Soldier treats melee weapons as area weapons *for Soldier Feats* only. In Whirling Swipe, Shot on the Run, etc. the Area Fire is a subordinated action which cannot proc Punishing Salvo. If you don't use a Soldier feat, your melee weapon does not have the Area(burst 5ft) trait.
This is really, *really* poorly written. It is not supposed to be this difficult to decode.
Particularly when two feats that SEEM to be OK to be used together (Shot on the Run and Punishing Salvo) are printed literally on the same page and to realise that they don't work together you need to scavenge very lengthy discussions on the forum.
Area Attack/Auto-Fire have the [Attack]Trait, so they increase your MAP even though you didn't make a strike. So your strike with Punishing Salvo is -5 (Because the primary target atrike didn't count).
Area Attack/Auto-Fire have the [Attack]Trait, so they increase your MAP even though you didn't make a strike. So your strike with Punishing Salvo is -5 (Because the primary target atrike didn't count).
oof. I didn't notice.
This opens a different can of worms. If I Strike with an automatic rifle and then Auto-Fire with it, does the MAP apply to the Auto-Fire DC? RAI, it should; RAW, it doesn't because they plainly forgot to update the wording from pathfinder and exclusively mention "checks" and never "DCs".| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Area Attack/Auto-Fire have the [Attack]Trait, so they increase your MAP even though you didn't make a strike. So your strike with Punishing Salvo is -5 (Because the primary target atrike didn't count).oof. I didn't notice.
This opens a different can of worms. If I Strike with an automatic rifle and then Auto-Fire with it, does the MAP apply to the Auto-Fire DC? RAI, it should; RAW, it doesn't because they plainly forgot to update the wording from pathfinder and exclusively mention "checks" and never "DCs".
No, and there's no indication that it's unintended to since this has always been possible since the original soldier playtest teaser.
Yeah have to agree there's no reason to think it's not on purpose, especially since a change like that would have a significant impact on certain weapons... though admittedly does feel a little janky that Strike>Auto ends up being significantly better than Auto>Strike.
does feel a little janky that Strike>Auto ends up being significantly better than Auto>Strike.
For a soldier it's straight up worse though?
With Auto>Strike your Primary Target strike is at MAP0, which in turn increases the chances that the area fire save will be downgraded from success to failure.With Strike>Auto you still get the same two strikes at MAP0, MAP-5, but the effect on the save vs. auto fire is lessened.
And for a non-soldier, Strike>Auto gives you a strike at 0 MAP and an auto-fire, while Auto>Strike gives you a strike at -5 and an auto fire.
Both examples illustrate the point though, that having the attack trait on something that isn't an attack is kind of funky and makes order of operations weirdly important.