I have a friend that wants to play a level 20 combat and has run a character idea by me. He wants to dip a single level into alchemist to have the mutagen class feature and wants to purchase a mutagen from a higher level alchemist for the higher bonuses. Is this possible? And if so, what would the cost be to purchase a class ability? Thanks for the help.
There are no pricing guidelines for purchasing a class ability. For good reason; items that duplicate class abilities have been called out multiple times by the game designers as "really bad design." (Some did make it in, particularly legacy items from 3.5 and earlier.)
So the pricing answer is "whatever you want it to be." I personally would say a flat "no" but of course it depends on your game and what you want the power level to be.
Does it work? Yes. With a few caveats. I would say the seller would have to (at a minimum) have the Infuse Mutagen discovery. Because otherwise you run the risk of buying the mutagen then the seller creates a new one and *poof* the one you bought is useless. So that's 1000gp of materials for an Infused Mutagen. And he has to be somewhere where he can actually find an alchemist whose level is at least as high as the mutagen he wants.
If you really want a price I would go something like:
(the second 1/2 level is to come up with an analogue to "spell level")
I'd add in some more cost if the alchemist has discoveries that affect the mutagen and increase the multiplier from 250 to 500 or more if he has the Persistent Mutagen feature.
As you can tell, I really don't think this should be available and wouldn't allow it. Your mileage may vary.
Alchemists can explicitly use mutagens made by other alchemists, so this works. See here:
Quote:
A non-alchemist who drinks a mutagen must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the alchemist's level + the alchemist's Intelligence modifier) or become nauseated for 1 hour—a non-alchemist can never gain the benefit of a mutagen, but an alchemist can gain the effects of another alchemist's mutagen if he drinks it. [emphasis added] (Although if the other alchemist creates a different mutagen, the effects of the “stolen” mutagen immediately cease.) The effects of a mutagen do not stack. Whenever an alchemist drinks a mutagen, the effects of any previous mutagen immediately end.
In order to ensure that the mutagen does not become inert the moment the alchemist creates a new mutagen for his own use, the Infuse Mutagen discovery would indeed be necessary and it would cost an extra 1000 gp in reagents, a cost that would be added on to the service. It is reasonable to say that an alchemist would want to be able to use his own mutagen that day and therefore would not be willing to sell a non-infused mutagen.
As for the price, Belafon is apparently pricing a mutagen's cost much like a spellcasting service for a spell but at 25x the base price (or 5x the price of purchasing a potion). I think that is oddly excessive and does indeed stem from Belafon not liking it if someone pays for a better mutagen. For reference:
Spellcasting service cost: caster level × spell level × 10 gp + material component cost + 1/10 × focus component cost;
You will have to come up with your own pricing method, but I would recommend using spellcasting services or potion prices as the base (likely potion pricing) while using alchemist level as caster level and 1/2 alchemist level as spell level (and we only care about the minimum level needed), so...
A greater mutagen would be 12×6×10+1000=1720gp as a spellcasting service or 12×6×50+1000=4600gp as a potion.
A greater, persistent mutagen (1 hour per level duration) would be 14×7×10+1000=1980gp as a spellcasting service or 14×7×50+1000=5900gp as a potion.
A grand mutagen would be 16×8×10+1000=2280gp as a service or 16×8×50+1000=6600gp as a potion.
A true mutagen would be 20×10×10+1000=3000gp as a service or 20×10×50+1000=11000gp as a potion. However, spellcasting services only go up to 8th spell level normally so it is reasonable to say that you cannot procure a service like this that requires a level 20 alchemist. The only reasonable place to purchase a thing like that in the Golarion setting would be by plane shifting to Aktun (a city open to mortals that is led by Abadar, the god of trade, and whose undercity, Duskfathom, is led by Norgorber, who has a decidedly strong connection with alchemy) but no normal city is going to have an item like that for sale, so you would have to add the price of plane shifting back and forth to that and even then it would be reasonable to raise the price some more.
Using Infuse Mutagen is only going to get one use of the mutagen. So, the cost for this is going to be per dose of mutagen. Another thing to keep in mind about the infused mutagen is that it inflicts 2 points of INT damage and costs 1,000 GP. There should be some charge for taking the INT damage. This will not allow the character to use it more than one time.
As always, I'm not going to demand that everyone anyone run their game the way I would. Play the game the way your group wants to play!
Having said that, I would like to offer some counterpoints to Tom.
1) Potions are quite deliberately limited to 3rd-level spells and below. A greater mutagen - by both Tom's and my reasoning - would be the equivalent of a 6th-level spell.
2) Self-only spells cannot be made into a potion. While a mutagen is not technically self-only (as any alchemist can use one made by another alchemist), it's also not usable by anyone like a potion would be.
3) It's a class feature.
Because of those three ways in which this would be in excess of what a potion allows, the potion pricing of (Spell Level x Caster Level x 50 gp) is too low.
Spoiler:
I hadn't considered of it before this thread but I think an infused, persistent, grand mutagen would make a great reward for a party containing an alchemist of somewhere around 6th or 7th level upon completion of a big quest. Awesome power boost but only once so he has to be very sure it's the right time to use it.
Which is to say that I don't think the idea itself can't/shouldn't exist. But rather that such a mutagen should be granted by the GM and not something the players can just go out and buy any time they want. Especially at potion pricing.
To be honest, the fact that it has an effective spell level higher than 3rd and cannot be used by anyone other than a member of the same class actually suggests we should be using scroll pricing as our guideline rather than potion pricing, which would cut the base price by half compared to a potion (but you still pay full component cost). For reference, here are the prices for the infused mutagens using scroll pricing as our guideline:
A greater mutagen would be 12×6×25+1000=2800gp.
A greater, persistent mutagen would be 14×7×25+1000=3450gp
A grand mutagen would be 16×8×25+1000=4200gp
A true mutagen would be 20×10×25+1000=6000gp, but the price should likely be raised since it requires a 20th level alchemist, as mentioned above.
Oh, redoing the math made me notice that I miscalculated the grand mutagen's potion cost (all other prices, including the grand mutagen's service cost, are correct). The actual total for grand mutagen at potion pricing comes to 7400gp. The main reason to go with the spellcasting as a service cost is that unlike scrolls or potions and much like the spellcasting service, there is no item creation cost for producing a mutagen other than the material component cost, so that pricing makes sense also for a commission. Really, pick your preference as a GM.
As for the argument that this item grants a class feature, this is an item that grant the benefit of a stronger version of a class feature to someone who already has that very class feature (but strictly speaking it can also be used by alchemists who traded away their mutagen). There are plenty of items that strengthen class features, and there are also other ways to obtain alchemical bonuses to ability scores, like taking Blood Sap, Zerk, or Scour with Amp until you get a +6 alchemical bonus to that ability score and healing off the damage (and using Freedom of Movement to negate the Slow effect in the case of Blood Sap), or obtaining the benefits of Invigorating Poison or Psychonaut Manifestation.
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Lykos279 wrote:
I have a friend that wants to play a level 20 combat and has run a character idea by me. He wants to dip a single level into alchemist to have the mutagen class feature and wants to purchase a mutagen from a higher level alchemist for the higher bonuses. Is this possible? And if so, what would the cost be to purchase a class ability? Thanks for the help.
You could also potentially sidestep this and point your friend at the mutation warrior fighter archetype... Then his "level 20 combat" character can brew their own grand mutagen (as long as they have taken that discovery with the Mutagen Discovery ability).
Just have them invest in a vest of stable mutation to ignore the mental penalties of the mutagen.
on practical options, could do fighter arch mutagen warrior(as above), or fighter(or other martial class) with dip into wizard and use arcane wands & scrolls on himself. It's far easier and stays within RAW.
Simply finding a high level alchemist is a challenge then some diplomacy checks have to be made to get him to sell you said mutagens. It's not like the availability of scrolls that many classes can use. Copying a spell from a npc wizard adds 50% to the scribe cost.
ADVICE
On pricing mutagens (GM territory), scroll cost is similar (class list spell completion) but a bit low (no check to activate higher level abilities than you can cast), I'd add 50% to the scroll price formula or use $37.5*SplLvl*CstrLvl.
I think another valid method is to treat it as a metamagic(+1) and use scroll pricing without an activation roll.
Higher prices for doing weird/oddball stuff is the usual for Game Balance.
ADVICE
On pricing mutagens (GM territory), scroll cost is similar (class list spell completion) but a bit low (no check to activate higher level abilities than you can cast), I'd add 50% to the scroll price formula or use $37.5*SplLvl*CstrLvl.
I think another valid method is to treat it as a metamagic(+1) and use scroll pricing without an activation roll.
Higher prices for doing weird/oddball stuff is the usual for Game Balance.
The Alchemist class specifically forbids this and then
..., but an alchemist can gain the effects of another alchemist’s mutagen if he drinks it. (Although if the other alchemist creates a different mutagen, the effects of the “stolen” mutagen immediately cease.) The effects of a mutagen do not stack. Whenever an alchemist drinks a mutagen, the effects of any previous mutagen immediately end. which is not exactly convenient.
(just generalities as this is the Rules forum)
I've reviewed the topic and the basis above is pretty good advice with the base mutagen at an effective SplLvl=2.
Infused Mutagen should be $2000 based on cost and comparables added to an existing mutagen. Persistent should be +2 SplLvl. I'm torn between making this a discovery and requiring a decent INT and 80%max ranks in craft alchemy. I'd incorporate an expiration date with these infusions.
