What happened to Leng?

[Generic Villain]

I am a big fan of Pathfinder 1e, and don't plan on switching over to 2e mechanics, but I do like keeping up with the lore of the 2e campaign setting. I know there have been a lot of changes, and most of them make sense to me. But apparently the Nightmare Realm of Leng is gone now? That confounds me. There's no WotC IP conflict there, and Leng had a massive role in Pathfinder 1e. It's also a really cool, interesting place. Is there any word as to why it's been written out in 2e?

I'm not even 100% sure that it has been disposed of, but it certainly seems to have been. I only noticed because in the Tian Xia World Guide, the Shory city of Yjae is now being invaded by some oni. In 1e, the city had a Leng incursion. Apparently Leng is now legacy content? Sigh.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

i haven't heard any word about Leng going away, but then I also didn't realize it was ever that important in 1e. The city of Yjae change may have been driven by other factors than the remaster and probably shouldn't be taken as evidence of a general trend in Leng lore... we shall have to see, unless perhaps someone else has heard something?

[Generic Villain]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

i haven't heard any word about Leng going away, but then I also didn't realize it was ever that important in 1e. The city of Yjae change may have been driven by other factors than the remaster and probably shouldn't be taken as evidence of a general trend in Leng lore... we shall have to see, unless perhaps someone else has heard something?

Leng plays a fairly big role in Rise of the Runelords, as well as the fifth Shattered Star adventure when you travel there. Denizens of Leng and moon-beasts also play a major role in Strange Aeons. Aside from that, the Nightmare Realm pops up in several unexpected places. Yjae is one of them, as is the Wall of Heavens Mountain. I'm sure if I took the time to dig through sourcebooks I could find many more examples.

My concern is that Pathfinder 2.5 has divested itself of all Lovecraftian Mythos stuff, and Leng is just one casualty. Are Cthulhu, Azatoth, and Nyarlathothep still established parts of Pathfinder? The Necronomicon? Or are they out too?

[James Jacobs]

Leng's in the same place it always have been, in the Dreamlands. Hasn't gone anywhere. We just can't talk about every place all at once is all. The Elder Mythos are also still part of the setting, as well. We haven't abandoned the cosmic horror elements that popped in now and then in 1st edition (or in 2nd edition, as recently as in Seven Dooms for Sandpoint), but not every product is the right one to include Cthulhus in is all.

EDIT: That said, Nhimbaloth, one of the eldritch additions I invented and brought into the mythos alongside the rest, gets a name drop on page 349 of the Monster Core, so yeah... they're all there, lurking in the outer darkness, patient and potent, waiting for the right time (and story) to pop up in again.

[Generic Villain]

Ah, that's great news. Thank you.

[Virellius]

James Jacobs wrote:

Leng's in the same place it always have been, in the Dreamlands. Hasn't gone anywhere. We just can't talk about every place all at once is all. The Elder Mythos are also still part of the setting, as well. We haven't abandoned the cosmic horror elements that popped in now and then in 1st edition (or in 2nd edition, as recently as in Seven Dooms for Sandpoint), but not every product is the right one to include Cthulhus in is all.

EDIT: That said, Nhimbaloth, one of the eldritch additions I invented and brought into the mythos alongside the rest, gets a name drop on page 349 of the Monster Core, so yeah... they're all there, lurking in the outer darkness, patient and potent, waiting for the right time (and story) to pop up in again.

While on the topic, is Ithaqua or something similar still a part of the canon? I always thought the idea of an eldritch entity of the cold and hunger and isolation was super creepy.

[James Jacobs]

Virellius wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Leng's in the same place it always have been, in the Dreamlands. Hasn't gone anywhere. We just can't talk about every place all at once is all. The Elder Mythos are also still part of the setting, as well. We haven't abandoned the cosmic horror elements that popped in now and then in 1st edition (or in 2nd edition, as recently as in Seven Dooms for Sandpoint), but not every product is the right one to include Cthulhus in is all.

EDIT: That said, Nhimbaloth, one of the eldritch additions I invented and brought into the mythos alongside the rest, gets a name drop on page 349 of the Monster Core, so yeah... they're all there, lurking in the outer darkness, patient and potent, waiting for the right time (and story) to pop up in again.

While on the topic, is Ithaqua or something similar still a part of the canon? I always thought the idea of an eldritch entity of the cold and hunger and isolation was super creepy.

Ithaqua is the creation of August Derleth, and as such is not in the public domain and is still copyright his estate. Ithaqua's one of those members of the mythos we could only do stuff with in Strange Aeons (along with the Clark Ashton Smith entries and several others) because we had a license with Chaosium involving an ad trade and some other stuff. We remain buddies with Chaosium and so could do something with Ithaqua or the other ones that aren't public domain again in the future but that'd require a new license agreement with them or something to that effect.

What we've said about Ithaqua remains canon, but as a result of the above, it's not likely for us to expand upon that anytime soon.