Why being barely on par with other martials just doesn't cut it

[Subutai1]

Hi,

Playing a class that gives up it's own offensive potential to support others was, is and will always be unpopular. Paizo knows that as well, which is why the 2 most popular support classes are the most busted casters of them all budget-wise (Cleric and Bard). There is a steep price to be paid to do significantly less damage in a group that maybe already has a supporter, so basically half your party is support (Commander will have a similar problem). So to make the Guardian a class people will be interested in playing, will require him breaking the standard budget a martial class gets and right now, without having had the time to actually play this class yet, at least on paper it looks the budget this class is built on is way overvalued.

Ideas to blow the budget:

If a Fighter, the king of hitting, can start with expert proficiency in all non-advanced weapons, why can't Guardian, the king of defensive, start with expert proficiency in armors? As a Guardian you want to be the least attractive target on the battlefield for all enemies to hit on and then using your own mechanics to force enemies to hit you anyway. However, right now especially with taunt you become one of the most juicy targets to hit. Sure, you can choose crit resistance with Mitigate Harm, however the amount is very underwhelming and doesn't stack with all your other sources of resistance, which is another design flaw in this class.

Another idea would be to bump up the hit point level progression to d12. Why is this only utilized on Barbarians? A class that does little else than "tank" for their party surely deserves to be a little bit more beefy than your average Fighter. Give them that and instead remove Tough to Kill entirely from the class chassy, which is just a bad incentive to let the Guardian go down.

Since the Guardian falls off dealing damage with weapons, why not give him at least a class feat chain which improves his damage with shields? Here, you could either incorporate attacks with shields or damage reflection mechanics when blocking for example, or maybe both. Also, there is too little incentive to use Tower Shields, even though you would think this would be the class making the most use out of those.

If dealing decent damage is some weird anathema for Guardian, then why not make him a better Athletics user? Both Barbarian and Monk have access to permanent +2 circumstance bonus to one or multiple athletic maneuvers, Earth Kineticists get a similar permanent status bonus on those. Would it be that bad giving something similar to Guardian?

That's all my ideas so far. Once I get some actual gameplay in, I will either add new ideas or elaborate on the mentioned ones. What's your ideas to make better use of the budget of this class?

[WWHsmackdown]

Yea inverse fighter proficiencies on armor (and regular martial attack proficiency) would feel a lot better

[Teridax]

So, I don't think I can say for sure whether the Guardian is underpowered or not (I don't actually think they are), but what I can definitely agree with is that from what experience I've had so far with them, they don't feel like they're doing much, even when they are. Their Strikes and Athletics maneuvers are barely supported by their class abilities, so the actions they can take to actually progress fights are about as weak as it gets for a martial class. What they're great at doing, however, is stalling by doing everything in their power to act as a HP battery for their team, which so far has proven to feel both extremely passive to play, and vaguely irritating to GM combat against. Being the best HP battery in the game by a large margin I don't think really should be a class's claim to fame, particularly when classes like the Barbarian and Champion can be effective HP batteries and still do a ton of other things too.

Another issue I take with the Guardian right now is that their stats and class features are implemented in a way that's just bafflingly awkward: Armor Specialization, Mitigate Harm, and Intercept Strike's resistances all clash with each other, and Intercept Strike in particular means one of your key tanking abilities has no interaction with your up-to-legendary AC... not that your AC will be particularly good when you Taunt at low levels, and at level 1 your overall defenses will be worse than a Wizard's against a taunted enemy. Not great for a frontliner, and to add insult to injury, if you take damage that triggers your armor specialization's resistance, Mitigate Harm's resistance at that level will provide literally no added benefit. This I think makes for a particularly bad level 1, and from the limited experience I've had playtesting a Guardian at the points where your attack proficiency lags behind other martials, their Strikes felt so awful that I eventually just didn't even bother.

With this in mind, I'd support several of the above changes, along with a few more:

I'd much rather just get rid of all the overlapping resistances to give the Guardian 12 base HP per level. Armor Specialization makes sense to have, but I don't think needs to really come online at level 1 specifically.

I think the Guardian needs at least one core class feature at 1st level that makes their Strikes worth using. Simply being able to Taunt and punch someone at melee range in a single action I think would already make all the difference.

I'd be fine keeping the Guardian's starting armor proficiency at trained, provided Taunt dropped its circumstance bonus to hostile actions. A circumstance penalty to hostile actions against other creatures should be enough.

From my experience, the Guardian needs to move around a lot if they want to put Taunt and Intercept Strike to the best use. I think there's a lot of potential here to make the Guardian much more mobile, such as by removing the Speed penalty of heavy armor completely as several other players have suggested.

On a more thematic level, I feel less emphasis needs to be put on the Guardian being really good at using armor, and more on the Guardian themselves being an absolute juggernaut, especially in full armor. Framing all of the Guardian's feats as a series of special armor techniques I think is what's contributing to the class feeling a bit too close in flavor to the Fighter, who also masters armor techniques as well as weapon arts. If, by contrast, armor were just this incredibly precious thing to the Guardian, and complemented their own brute-force fighting style perfectly, we'd be able to get out of Fighter territory and more into "quarterback bodyguard" territory.

[Subutai1]

Teridax wrote:

I think the Guardian needs at least one core class feature at 1st level that makes their Strikes worth using. Simply being able to Taunt and punch someone at melee range in a single action I think would already make all the difference.

I like the idea of Taunt + Punch a lot, since right now, the last thing you want to do in melee is to taunt that melee target, so he can clobber you much more easily in return. Taunt right now is most effective from range and then running away, so the enemy only has debuffed targets in range, which flavor-wise is a horrendous design. A Tauntpunch for 1 action would be a nice trade-off (staying in melee) and action compression at the same time.

Teridax wrote:

From my experience, the Guardian needs to move around a lot if they want to put Taunt and Intercept Strike to the best use. I think there's a lot of potential here to make the Guardian much more mobile, such as by removing the Speed penalty of heavy armor completely as several other players have suggested.

This is also a great idea. I would add ignoring movement penalties from shields as well, so Tower Shields become much more attractive.

[Teridax]

Adding to the above, I think trimming down the resistances and giving the Guardian 12 HP/level would put them in the perfect position for Intercept Strike to redirect attacks towards their own AC, instead of just straight-up taking damage each time. Not only would this allow Intercept Strike to properly make use of the Guardian's exceptional AC, it'd also have it make more sense for the Guardian to then also be able to access feats like a version of the Commander's Defensive Swap, which lets you also reposition yourself and an ally while also switching an attack's target. Really, it's strange right now that the Guardian's currently all about using fancy armor techniques, but also takes hits for their allies by just blocking with their face. If they were a brute that was naturally quite good at blocking with their face and armor, but actually did get to put their own armor in the way of attacks meant for their allies, I think that'd work better towards their flavor as well as their mechanics.

[Lia Wynn]

I agree that they should have 12 HP/level.

[Gobhaggo]

Not necessarily Taunt+Strike, maybe even Taunt+Stride/Step/Hide/etc

[Subutai1]

Gobhaggo wrote:

Not necessarily Taunt+Strike, maybe even Taunt+Stride/Step/Hide/etc

That would be maximally anti-flavor.

[Megistone]

Subutai1 wrote:

remove Tough to Kill entirely from the class chassy, which is just a bad incentive to let the Guardian go down.

It's the second time I read something like this about that feature of the Guardian. It's not an incentive, it's a safeguard. It's like saying that we should remove Heal and similar spells because they are an incentive for getting hit.

[Subutai1]

Megistone wrote:

Subutai1 wrote:

remove Tough to Kill entirely from the class chassy, which is just a bad incentive to let the Guardian go down.

It's the second time I read something like this about that feature of the Guardian. It's not an incentive, it's a safeguard. It's like saying that we should remove Heal and similar spells because they are an incentive for getting hit.

A class feature that only triggers when you are lying in the dirt, bleeding out, is not a good feature, period. If you want to keep the feature and true to it's name I would change it to something similar to Orc Ferocity, where you can still act after using it and not just delay your death by 1 round.

[Trip.H]

Subutai1 wrote:

Megistone wrote:

Subutai1 wrote:

remove Tough to Kill entirely from the class chassy, which is just a bad incentive to let the Guardian go down.

It's the second time I read something like this about that feature of the Guardian. It's not an incentive, it's a safeguard. It's like saying that we should remove Heal and similar spells because they are an incentive for getting hit.

A class feature that only triggers when you are lying in the dirt, bleeding out, is not a good feature, period. If you want to keep the feature and true to it's name I would change it to something similar to Orc Ferocity, where you can still act after using it and not just delay your death by 1 round.

I have to agree that it's not a good feature.

The sort of ability that only has an effect when you are dying/loosing badly is notoriously frowned upon in character/class based video game design.

You are allocating power budget to give them that emergency passive, when it could be better put to use to stop them from getting to that emergency spot to begin with.

That kind of design is especially bizarre to see in a ttrpg, where even page count is considered scarce.

In a video game there's little cognitive load / opportunity loss, but in a ttrpg that class feature really does represent the loss of something else that 99% likely would be more helpful to the Guardian.

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and "but flavor" is no excuse.

There's a million ways to have a "hard to kill" style feature that can trigger / be more generally helpful.

Even small changes could cause the ability to be relevant 10x more often. Something like:

I Can Still Fight! wrote:

If you are not Wounded, when you would normally be rendered unconscious and dying, you may choose to instead become Wounded 1 and remain standing with 1HP.

[Teridax]

My issue with Tough to Kill is that, as far as core class feats go, it doesn't feel terribly exciting, and most of it is about giving a general feat for free that you'd likely already be getting for this class. Being able to mitigate near-certain death once a day by reducing your dying condition is okay, but if you're getting to dying 3 as a Guardian, something's already gone very wrong. I'd much rather have a feature that'd either let you rise from 0 HP and pick up your weapons to immediately start fighting, or even some kind of last stand mechanic where you can continue fighting even when brought to 0 HP, with damage taken increasing your dying condition as normal.

[Megistone]

I disagree.
First, if it was made that way, chances are that there isn't enough 'power budget' to change it into something that is more powerful, or more broadly applicable. It's like getting that free Shield Block: a bonus general feat, with an extra safeguard that will kick in if you happen to need it. And by the way, why would the Diehard feat even exist if it was just so bad?
Second, again, calling it an incentive to go down makes no sense; by that logic the Cleric's extra Heal slots are a bad class feature because they become useful when you or your friends have been hurt, which you want to avoid anyway.

[Subutai1]

Megistone wrote:

And by the way, why would the Diehard feat even exist if it was just so bad?

This statement is quite ironic, considering that like 50% of all general feats, 70% of all skill feats and about 70% of spells in existence are straight up bad. This is talking from an optimizer perspective of course, I understand that most of those have their use flavor-wise, just not mechanically.

All this to say, we have enough bad in the game. Which is why I hope better feedback will give better options for future releases.

[Perpdepog]

Subutai1 wrote:

Gobhaggo wrote:

Not necessarily Taunt+Strike, maybe even Taunt+Stride/Step/Hide/etc

That would be maximally anti-flavor.

Hide I can understand, but how is going "Hey, you! Come get some!" And then Stepping/Striding toward your enemy anti-flavor? That sounds like exactly the thing you'd want to do as a guardian, doubly so if that Step/Stride gets you in the enemy's face, and in range of your other reactions.

Teridax wrote:

From my experience, the Guardian needs to move around a lot if they want to put Taunt and Intercept Strike to the best use. I think there's a lot of potential here to make the Guardian much more mobile, such as by removing the Speed penalty of heavy armor completely as several other players have suggested.

On a more thematic level, I feel less emphasis needs to be put on the Guardian being really good at using armor, and more on the Guardian themselves being an absolute juggernaut, especially in full armor. Framing all of the Guardian's feats as a series of special armor techniques I think is what's contributing to the class feeling a bit too close in flavor to the Fighter, who also masters armor techniques as well as weapon arts. If, by contrast, armor were just this incredibly precious thing to the Guardian, and complemented their own brute-force fighting style perfectly, we'd be able to get out of Fighter territory and more into "quarterback bodyguard" territory.

I like that image a lot. It also puts guardian at an interesting triangulation point of fighter, champion, and monk as someone who learns various techniques like a fighter, defends like a champion and monk, and devotes themself to positioning like a monk does, all centered around their armor, and probably shield if they've got one.

I'm a big fan of positioning or anti-positioning tactics for the guardian. I like the idea of them being sticky. Hampering Sweeps--if I'm getting the feat's name right--is a really interesting design. Not because of how powerful it is, but because it's a feat that specifically rewards you not using a Reach weapon. Stuff like that is cool and where I'd like to see the guardian excel.

[Subutai1]

Perpdepog wrote:

Subutai1 wrote:

Gobhaggo wrote:

Not necessarily Taunt+Strike, maybe even Taunt+Stride/Step/Hide/etc

That would be maximally anti-flavor.

Hide I can understand, but how is going "Hey, you! Come get some!" And then Stepping/Striding toward your enemy anti-flavor? That sounds like exactly the thing you'd want to do as a guardian, doubly so if that Step/Stride gets you in the enemy's face, and in range of your other reactions.

Would the move/step be limited to "towards the target", I would agree with you. As Taunt works right now, to use it optimally you would want to move/step away from the taunted target, which is anti-flavor.