Hey Bruce, what's that Cestus do?


Advice


What does a cestus do for a monk? From the APG:

Benefit: While wearing a cestus, you are considered armed and your unarmed attacks deal normal damage. If you are proficient with a cestus, your unarmed strikes may deal bludgeoning or piercing damage. Monks are proficient with the cestus.

Drawback: When using a cestus, your fingers are mostly exposed, allowing you to wield or carry items in that hand, but the constriction of the weapon at your knuckles gives you a –2 penalty on all precision-based tasks involving that hand (such as opening locks).

My guess is that a level 1 monk with a cestus may choose to do either:
A. Use the cestus as a weapon for d4 damage with crits at 19-20/x2
B. Use unarmed attacks, and the cestus allows the unarmed attack to do their standard damage dice of D6, but with the ability to count as piercing.

Questions 1: Is that right?
Question 2: Does a monk with a cestus doing unarmed damage get his critical threat improved to 19-20/x2 from using the cestus?
Question 3: Does a cestus made with adamantium allow the monk's unarmed attacks to count as adamantium for overcoming DR?
Question 4: If the cestus is enchanted, do the monk's unarmed attacks get the enhancement bonus?
Question 5: Since the hand may hold something, would a monk with a cestus on both hands still have free hands for Crane Style?

Thanks!


A is the correct answer, according to rules questions thread after rules questions thread (which is the part of the forum where this question should have been asked...I guess. Or you could have just done a search there for your answer). Check those out for the appropriate rationales and developer comments.

The cestus is just a light weapon with the monk special property. Nothing more or less. Your unarmed strike ability does not apply to it. If it is adamantine, then your weapon attack goes through adamantine like normal. If it is enhanced, then it is an enhanced light weapon.

I do find it a legitimate question about whether it counts as a free hand though. Although, if you are using flurry, would it matter? You can flurry using only one weapon, so why not just wear one cestus? Sure, it looks weird, but mechanically it works. It cheaper too, since you only have to buy one weapon. But yeah, I never did find a good answer about crane wing or whether you could weild weapons while wearing these.


lemeres wrote:

A is the correct answer, according to rules questions thread after rules questions thread (which is the part of the forum where this question should have been asked...I guess. Or you could have just done a search there for your answer). Check those out for the appropriate rationales and developer comments.

The cestus is just a light weapon with the monk special property. Nothing more or less. Your unarmed strike ability does not apply to it. If it is adamantine, then your weapon attack goes through adamantine like normal. If it is enhanced, then it is an enhanced light weapon.

I do find it a legitimate question about whether it counts as a free hand though. Although, if you are using flurry, would it matter? You can flurry using only one weapon, so why not just wear one cestus? Sure, it looks weird, but mechanically it works. It cheaper too, since you only have to buy one weapon. But yeah, I never did find a good answer about crane wing or whether you could weild weapons while wearing these.

Doesn't matter how it works with crane style feats because now those feats are garbage now.


My personal recommendation is to convince your DM to completely ignore the rulings that lemeres speaks of. Monks need every bit of help they can get, and the ruling that you basically need an amulet of mighty suck is plain unbalanced. There is no reason why a monk's attack and damage scaling should be twice as costly as another martial classes along with eating up their amulet slot.


Not that this is the appropriate place, but the Amulet of Mighty Fists cost is equal to twice that of a single weapon of the same enhancement bonus. Is that fair? Totally. Why? Because the monk gets similar attack progression (in numbers) as a two weapon fighting character. Two weapon fighting remarkably requires two weapons, which means twice the cost over a single weapon to enchant equally. The only thing that is unfair is that the amulet can only go to a +5 enhancement instead of a +10.

Shadow Lodge

Claxon wrote:
Not that this is the appropriate place, but the Amulet of Mighty Fists cost is equal to twice that of a single weapon of the same enhancement bonus. Is that fair? Totally. Why? Because the monk gets similar attack progression (in numbers) as a two weapon fighting character. Two weapon fighting remarkably requires two weapons, which means twice the cost over a single weapon to enchant equally. The only thing that is unfair is that the amulet can only go to a +5 enhancement instead of a +10.

Tangent:
I personally wouldn't mind the double-priced AoMF if it were balanced to make Unarmed Strikes as good as weapons for monks. But as is weapons give you so much more with 150%PA bonuses, only needing to pay for one of them to TWF, can have better critical threat ranges, and are able to get a +10 enhancement bonus, making weapons superior to unarmed strikes from a mechanics perspective. I still like unarmed strikes from a flavor perspective, and immunity to sunder/disarm, and being always armed is nice.

Claxon wrote:
Not that this is the appropriate place, but the Amulet of Mighty Fists cost is equal to twice that of a single weapon of the same enhancement bonus. Is that fair? Totally. Why? Because the monk gets similar attack progression (in numbers) as a two weapon fighting character. Two weapon fighting remarkably requires two weapons, which means twice the cost over a single weapon to enchant equally. The only thing that is unfair is that the amulet can only go to a +5 enhancement instead of a +10.

Yes it is balanced in cost with the equally unbalanced system of two weapon fighting. Two-weapon fighting requires significant feat and gold investment to be outdamaged by a big sweaty dude using a big sword and power attack.


I think the comparison to what can be done with with a single weapon and power attack isn't really the proper comparison. Yes, THW are better than TWF. But, monks flurry should be equal to TWF.

Shadow Lodge

Claxon wrote:
I think the comparison to what can be done with with a single weapon and power attack isn't really the proper comparison. Yes, THW are better than TWF. But, monks flurry should be equal to TWF.

Yes, but even with 1-hand fighting with something like a temple sword nets you a better critical threat range, and a cheaper weapon, and saves you an item slot [that you can fill with an Amulet of Natural Armor making it a defensive and offensive buff]. Which is why the AoMF helps keep unarmed strikes a sub-par [but my favorite] fighting style, along with the TWF v. THF issue, making the best weapon a monk could wield be a sword instead of his fists.

Lantern Lodge

Nah, a Sword isn't the best...

A longbow is!


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

Nah, a Sword isn't the best...

A longbow is!

No, dual-wielded pistols are! ...ok, got that silliness out of the way.

Anyway, if I am remembering right, the amulet of mighty fists only costs 1.5x normal prices now. Not much of a consultation, but meh.

With the advantages of a temple sword (you can TWF, but get two handed power attack bonuses? Yes please), I can understand why one would not go for unarmed flurries. Admittedly, since the monk's unarmed strikes are never offhand, they actually work better as a dip while you go into another TWF favoring class (such as ranger). That would allow you to get the most of of getting full power attack on every hit.

And if we are going to ignore all the bits about cestus rulings, then the simplest solution for making a monk's unarmed strikes scale well would be to have them get an enhancement bonus on par with that AC bonus they get while they level. Simply say that it is a part of ki strike (which means you can lose it if you use up your ki). That seems like it could work well enough as a house rule, and make monks the best at using their own unarmed strikes (unlike what I suggested above).


Claxon wrote:
Not that this is the appropriate place, but the Amulet of Mighty Fists cost is equal to twice that of a single weapon of the same enhancement bonus. Is that fair? Totally. Why? Because the monk gets similar attack progression (in numbers) as a two weapon fighting character. Two weapon fighting remarkably requires two weapons, which means twice the cost over a single weapon to enchant equally. The only thing that is unfair is that the amulet can only go to a +5 enhancement instead of a +10.

You forget that a Monk can Flurry with one weapon anyway.

So not only is the Unarmed Strike an inferior weapon in crit range and Power Attack bonus damage, it is also inferior because the AoMF costs twice as much as just buying one Temple Sword.

That IN ADDITION TO providing half the total benefit of the weapon itself.


Claxon wrote:

I think the comparison to what can be done with with a single weapon and power attack isn't really the proper comparison. Yes, THW are better than TWF. But, monks flurry should be equal to TWF.

Or we could have flurry of blows be based on a bad option, but learn from our mistakes and make it a good option instead?


All I'm saying... is that in my games I have house made items to allow Monks and throwers to be competitive.

Imbuing ammo carrier of X: Enchants as a weapon, imbues ammunition or throwing weapons within with the enchants of the ammo carrier.

Then I allow Cestus to be used at full monk unarmed damage.


Rynjin wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Not that this is the appropriate place, but the Amulet of Mighty Fists cost is equal to twice that of a single weapon of the same enhancement bonus. Is that fair? Totally. Why? Because the monk gets similar attack progression (in numbers) as a two weapon fighting character. Two weapon fighting remarkably requires two weapons, which means twice the cost over a single weapon to enchant equally. The only thing that is unfair is that the amulet can only go to a +5 enhancement instead of a +10.

You forget that a Monk can Flurry with one weapon anyway.

So not only is the Unarmed Strike an inferior weapon in crit range and Power Attack bonus damage, it is also inferior because the AoMF costs twice as much as just buying one Temple Sword.

That IN ADDITION TO providing half the total benefit of the weapon itself.

To be honest, this is a result of the FAQ saying that monks could flurry with only 1 weapon. Which honestly doesn't make any sense to me, but that is a different issue altogether.


lemeres wrote:
Anyway, if I am remembering right, the amulet of mighty fists only costs 1.5x normal prices now. Not much of a consultation, but meh.

Gah....sorry for a tangent, but I must ask: why didn't anyone call me on that mistake? I ended up confusing the bodywraps of mighty strikes with AoMF there. And BoMS is a terrible option for anything other than using unarmed strikes as offhand attacks while you mainhand with another weapon. Anyway, sorry for spreading misinformation and making myself look like a fool for a bit.

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