So I wanted to build a Puppetmaster Magus the other day, but getting into melee doesn't really fit the archetype's style IMHO. So figured I'd have a look at thrown weapons.
Now, regular thrown weapons obviously won't work (correct me if I'm wrong), because in terms of weapon classification, they are both melee and ranged and throwing them would make them count as a ranged weapon, which doesn't work with Spell Combat. For reference, Spell Combat never mentions melee attacks as the exact term, it only says "attacks made with your melee weapon."
But the Sharding Special Weapon Ability seems to work a little different:
This special ability can be placed only on melee or thrown weapons. The wielder of a sharding weapon can make a special ranged attack with the weapon in place of any melee attack. To do this, the wielder goes through the motion of throwing the weapon without releasing it. The weapon splits off a duplicate of itself that flies as if thrown by the wielder at the intended target. The duplicate gains a range increment of 10 feet for this purpose , but uses the same proficiency and otherwise functions the same as the original weapon. The duplicate vanishes after hitting or missing its target.
First bolded part: You make a ranged attack with your weapon. This is what thrown weapons do, so nothing new here. But the method how it is achieved is significantly different.
Second bolded part: In contrast to an actual thrown weapon, the original weapon doesn't actually get a range increment and doesn't leave your hand at all. Which makes it a melee weapon, or put differently, it doesn't make it a ranged or thrown weapon. The duplicate does however get a range increment for this special ranged attack.
This might all sound excessively nitpicky, but rules-wise ranged attacks and attacks with ranged weapons always have been treated differently.
Counting this as a weird corner case of a ranged attack being made with a melee weapon has a ton of implications, though. For example, you would be able to use Deadly Aim (ranged attack), but unable to utilize Point-Blank Shot (ranged weapon) and the whole shabam of typical ranged feats that follows.
What are your thoughts on this? RAW, I think it should work, but was that intended? At least on the Pathfinder Discord I had a bunch of people that said ask your GM /gray area and some who said Spell Combat should even work with regular thrown weapons, which I kind of didn't agree with but nvm.
Mechnically you are making a ranged attack, and the thing you are making a ranged attack with is the duplicate (not the original that you are still holding in your hand), which gains a range increment and is treated as a thrown weapon. So this is treated in the rules as a ranged thrown weapon attack with all the implications that might have.
I am unclear on why you think point-blank shot would not apply here. Unless I missed/forgot something, PBS only cares about if you are making a ranged attack within 30' - it does not care if that is a bow, sling, crossbow, or thrown weapon. The sharding weapon meets the ranged attack criteria. The range of 30' of course still applies as appropriate.
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The people saying you can use Spell Combat with thrown weapons are relying on the rules on thrown weapons from CRB page 141
Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.and
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons.
Looking at the following tables, you can see that the dagger is a melee weapon (that can be thrown) while the shuriken is a ranged weapon (that is thrown).
And adding that to the description of Spell Combat
...As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action...
So even if you throw a dagger, the argument is that you're still "making an attack with a melee weapon" because the dagger is classified as a melee weapon.
I don't personally believe that is intended, I'm pretty sure "making an attack with a melee weapon" means "making a melee attack." But people will be "excessively nitpicky."
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Your question about the sharding weapon property suggests that the above argument is not correct. That you can't use Spell Combat while throwing a dagger. Then you make the case that a sharding weapon would count as "making an attack with a melee weapon" because the actual weapon didn't leave your hand. But that's trying to parse the language even finer than the above argument. You are still making a ranged attack.
I was under the impression that Spell Combat only looks at the weapon table and any one-handed or light melee weapon is fair game. The reason why it doesn't work for thrown weapons, is that as soon a thrown weapon leaves your hand, you don't fulfill the prerequisite for spell combat anymore, because it requires you to wield a melee weapon. Sharding gets around that, because the weapon isn't thrown and doesn't have a range increment, but the duplicate is. Furthermore it calls out in the sharding ability that "The wielder of a sharding weapon can make a special ranged attack with the weapon in place of any melee attack." Strictly read, you would not attack with the duplicate, but with your melee weapon (which then uses the duplicate to bring the pain to the other dude).
That being said, if you go by the logic that the attack type automatically defines the weapon type, then of course it doesn't work.
The thing about a sharding weapon not working with PBS and the like automatically follows from my initial argument. If you treat it as a melee weapon, then obviously all feats that reference "ranged weapons" would not apply. It's just consequential.
EDIT: Weirdly enough, if you think it through, that means a sharding weapon could fire into melee without penalty, because the rule talks about ranged weapons. Something isn't quite right here lol
Also I might add, that if you key the weapon type off the attack type, then both Card Caster and Myrmidarch, while being more or less dedicated ranged archetypes, can't use spell combat with thrown weapons, because they don't alter Spell Combat. This sound kinda unintentional to me.
That being said, I think I need to revise my opinion about thrown weapon not working with spell combat. They absolutely should.
By the way, referring to the Sharding special ability, there is precedent for a special ability giving you a ranged attack with a dedicated melee weapon and that's Arcing Weapon.
EDIT: Weirdly enough, if you think it through, that means a sharding weapon could fire into melee without penalty, because the rule talks about ranged weapons. Something isn't quite right here lol
This is the crux of it.
Should a dart (ranged weapon, thrown) take the -4 penalty, but a dagger (melee weapon, thrown) not take the -4 pentalty without precise shot?
A reading that says one of these should get the penalty, but not the other, is an overly pedantic reading that is ignoring context.
(Side note, the weapon table doesn't even list a throwing axe on the ranged weapon table, it is listed as a light weapon, despite having the word throwing in the name)
While a dagger is classified as a melee weapon, being in the table for "melee weapons", at the time it is thrown it is a ranged weapon. When used in this way it has a range increment (a property of ranged weapons). That said, there may be some instances where the distinction between a ranged attack and a ranged weapon is important - but for many feats and abilities the two are synonmous. A thrown dagger suffers from lack of precise shot, benefits from point-blank shot, rapid shot, deadly aim, etc. A sharding weapon likewise suffers or benefits from all of these when used to make a ranged attack.
By the way, referring to the Sharding special ability, there is precedent for a special ability giving you a ranged attack with a dedicated melee weapon and that's Arcing Weapon.
I wouldn't put this in the same category as a sharding weapon. Here you are taking something that is normally a ranged attack, and altering it to be either a melee or ranged attack (with additional benefits and restrictions).
So I think I found a satisfying answer for me. And it lies withing a rules paragraph that I didn't see quoted anywhere in all those threads about thrown weapons and spell combat.
The paragraph that is always cited is
"Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee."
Which leaves a lot of room for interpretation. But another paragraph from the CRB makes a lot clearer how this is intended:
"Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon's use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon's usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large)."
From a logical standpoint, any weapon that you throw is useful at a distance, otherwise you couldn't throw it in the first place. Which means that any weapon that is thrown (aka used at range) automatically becomes a thrown weapon (in game terms) and by extension a ranged weapon in the context of the attack you are making.
This becomes even more obvious as there is precedent for a difference between and thrown weapon and a weapon that is designed to be thrown (Spell Hurling special ability). So the two are destinctively different in that any weapon that is thrown is a thrown weapon in game terms, but a weapon designed to be thrown is a weapon that has a range increment listed in the table. If thrown weapons were only those with a listed range increment, there would be no need for a stronger restriction.
That being said, thrown weapons encompasses the set of weapons designed to be thrown, because spells like named bullet work on thrown weapons. Obviously you can't cast named bullet on a weapon that has already been thrown and became a thrown weapon through that.