Divine Countenance & Beyond Morality

[Arkat]

Suppose my VERY diplomatic Mythic character has both Divine Countenance (Tier 1 Hierophant mythic path ability) and Beyond Morality (Tier 3 Universal mythic path ability).

Will he be able to treat everyone's attitude, no matter their alignment, as one step better?

[happykj]

" If you're the target of a spell or effect that is based on alignment, you're treated as the most favorable alignment when determining the spell's effect on you. "

I think based on this sentence, you should get the better result when you need to determine your alignment.

Since you are not restricted to alignment anymore, so everyone should be treated as one step within. If not, then Divine Countenance will have no valid target because you don't have alignment at all

[Mysterious Stranger]

A character with Beyond Morality has no alignment. If he is targeted by an effect that depends on alignment he is treated as if his alignment is the most favorable alignment. But that part of Beyond Morality only applies to things targeting the character.

Divine Countenance only affects creatures within one step of your alignment. Since you have no alignment, no creature is within one step of your alignment. Since the effects of Divine Countenance are targeting something besides yourself the most favorable alignment clause of Beyond Morality is not triggered.

So, Beyond Morality makes Divine Countenance useless.

[Arkat]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

A character with Beyond Morality has no alignment. If he is targeted by an effect that depends on alignment he is treated as if his alignment is the most favorable alignment. But that part of Beyond Morality only applies to things targeting the character.

Divine Countenance only affects creatures within one step of your alignment. Since you have no alignment, no creature is within one step of your alignment. Since the effects of Divine Countenance are targeting something besides yourself the most favorable alignment clause of Beyond Morality is not triggered.

So, Beyond Morality makes Divine Countenance useless.

That was also the interpretation of a friend of mine.

Thank you.

[Arkat]

happykj wrote:

Since you are not restricted to alignment anymore,

That's one reason, among many, why the 2 gaming groups I'm in are sticking with PF 1E.

[Azothath]

Mythic Hierophant Path Abilities
Mythic Universal Path abilities

I'd agree that the second 3rd tier ability (Alignment="") is going to muck with the first as there is no exception for "abilities" and your alignment is "n/a".
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Imbue with Aura:T2

[Arkat]

I agree that RAW, DC does seem to be useless if you have BM.

However, DC (a lowly Tier 1 ability, btw) does cost you a path ability slot so it should give you *something.*

If your character is TN and takes DC, the attitudes of other TN, CN, NG, LN, and NE folks are improved by one step.

Is it too much to ask if a Tier 3 ability like BM will allow you to improve the attitudes of folks who are LG, CG, LE, and CE by one step as well?

Sure, those four alignments are extremes (so, harder to influence), but, like I said, BM is a Tier 3 ability.

Just food for thought.

[Mysterious Stranger]

If you want to improve the attitude of any alignment, take persuasive countenance instead of divine countenance. It only works on targets that are at least indifferent but has no other restrictions. It is on the marshal and trickster paths.

If all that BM did was allow you to affect any alignment with DC it would not be overpowered, but it already gives you a lot more than that. BM is already a powerful ability allowing it to interact this way makes it and DC more powerful than they should be.

[Azothath]

The Homebrew Forum is for Rule changes. Advice Forum is for advice. In the Rules Forum we try to explain RAW.

the desire to have a specific interaction which varies from RAW relies on Home Game rules. Your GM needs to see a problem to fix it.
With Mythic games the GM has signed up to be more involved as the game has gone beyond what the Game Model and RAW can really handle on a day-to-day basis.
It is not helpful that the abilities come from two different 'mythic paths'.

I posted a spell to resolve the issue.

Retraining (if the choice has been made) should be a RAW option (it was not written with Mythic in mind). Then again, you have easier access to Wish and Miracle and similar GM effects in a Mythic game.

Commentary
Mythic powers, even "a lowly Tier 1 ability" is over the top power wise.
There's no power efficiency rating in RAW. Plenty of low powered magic items, feats, & abilities that cost the standard amount. There are some overpowered doozies. Most "problem" items have poor descriptions or an inappropriate cost (see PFS banned items).
This is just one case where the abilities interact to negate one aspect of the other. Even spells do that. As a player you have to figure out these issues and have the wisdom to know when to use or avoid them. Some 'problems' can be beneficial as circumstances and situations vary.

[Arkat]

Been thinking more about this issue from a Beyond Morality (BM) perspective.

BM states "You can become a member of any class, even one with an alignment requirement, and can never lose your membership because of a change in alignment."

In spite of the very first sentence in the ability's description ("You have no alignment."), can't you, effectively, have *any* alignment? If you multiclass, can't you effectively have *every* alignment?

You need to be Lawful Good to be a Paladin. No problem, despite the fact I'm no longer (or ever was) Lawful Good, I can still be a Paladin. Same for being an Anti-Paladin (CE) or the Anti-Paladin with the Tyrant archetype (LE). If there's a class, archetype, or prestige class that requires the CG alignment, I can be that, too. I can be any of those things because I have BM.

Perhaps, when Paizo does 2nd Edition Mythic stuff, they'll need to think more carefully about abilities like BM and make it more clear what they're trying to accomplish with it.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The ability to become a member of any class is actually a separate ability from not having an alignment. Technically if you have BM you should be able to take levels in any class including prestige classes that you do not meet the prerequisite for.

Since you are still subject to the codes of a class it is less useful for a paladin than other classes. The Paladin’s code specifies you lose all paladin abilities if you commit an evil act. So, even with beyond morality a paladin committing an evil act loses his class abilities. BM is more useful for monks and barbarians then paladins.

BM makes your alignment a null.