Question about kineticist's talent Greater elemental whispers and wysps.

[Raveve]

I came across an interesting rules question while making a new character for a game.

In the Kineticist utility wild talents you are able to get a Wysp familiar using these talents :
Elemental whispers

Greater elemental whispers

In the wysp stat block there is this ability:

Living Battery (Ex)

As an immediate action, a wysp can kill itself to cause a creature benefiting from its resonance to heal 2 hit points for each of that creature’s HD. If the wysp uses this ability, its death can’t be prevented, and its life can’t be restored by any effect less than true resurrection, miracle, or wish, even if such an effect can normally revive an outsider.

My question is how does this ability interact with Greater elemental whispers? Whispers says the element returns to your mind if it dies and can be re-manifested for the normal resummon cost but the ability says it can't be resurrected. What I think is that Greater whispers trumps the wysp's ability ( specific > general) as normal improved familiar wysps do not get to remain connected to it's masters minds and the masters to do not retain the alertness feat if the familiar dies. It reads to me as if only the material body dies and the consciousness cannot truly die.

Sorry for my rambling, I would just like to know what other people think.

[Diego Rossi]

As often happens, there isn't a clear "precedence" about "specific> general". Wha is more specific? How a wysp work or how an ability that can create either a wysp ora small elemental works?

I would treat it as getting a replacement familiar.

A wizard has a cat familiar. It is a class feature.
If the cat dies, the wizard still has the familiar class feature and can get a new cat familiar, but it is a different cat.
Mechanically nothing changes, for the person it can mean a world of change.

Same for the wysp. It permanently dies (barring True Resurrection etc.). The character still has the class feature, so he gets a new wysp familiar after a suitable period, but it isn't the same wysp.
For some player, it will matter, for others it will be a revolving door of new wysps for emergency healing.

[Melkiador]

Quote:

When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life.

Quote:

If the wysp uses this ability, its death can’t be prevented, and its life can’t be restored by any effect less than true resurrection, miracle, or wish, even if such an effect can normally revive an outsider.

What other kind of effect is this referring to? I'm having trouble finding other effects that can normally revive an outsider

[Melkiador]

What's confusing here is that the wysp in question isn't actually a wysp. It behaves in all ways as a wysp, but isn't actually a wysp. And when it dies, it ceases to be a wysp and thus loses those wysp abilities.

[Diego Rossi]

Melkiador wrote:

What other kind of effect is this referring to? I'm having trouble finding other effects that can normally revive an outsider

Breath of Life is one of those effects.

I recall a specific spell to raise outsiders from death, but can't find it. Probably it was a 3.5 spell.

[Melkiador]

Are we sure Breath of Life can do that, because that's news to me.

[Diego Rossi]

Melkiador wrote:

Are we sure Breath of Life can do that, because that's news to me.

Breath of Life

Breath of Life brings you back if:
1) you haven't been killed by a death effect;
2) the character can be brought "at a negative amount (of hit points) less than its Constitution score";
3) if your constitution has a positive value (it is not in the spell, but it doesn't heal constitution damage, so, if you died for that it doesn't work).

It doesn't say that it doesn't work if you are an outsider or if you have died for other effects besides hit points damage.

If you fail a Massive Damage save or the save after a successful Coup de Grace, you die, but those aren't a death effect. Unless you have suffered more hp damage, the dead condition only brings you at a negative hp value equal to your constitution score, so healing even 1 hit point with Breath of Life brings you back.

[Melkiador]

Yes, but the limitation is in the outsiders themselves. And that text doesn’t say it works on outsiders.

[Diego Rossi]

Melkiador wrote:

Yes, but the limitation is in the outsiders themselves. And that text doesn’t say it works on outsiders.

Outsiders wrote:

Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.

From what I get, Breath of Life doesn't restore a soul to a dead creature, it stops the creature from really dying.