Permanency and Metamagic

[Isaac Zephyr]

If you cast Permanency on a Metamagic adjusted spell, does the Metamagic remain? Or wording the question another way: Can you cast Permanency on a Metamagic'd effect?

Example uses.

Heightened Spell: Dancing Lights
Increase the spell level to just higher than Deeper Darkness and boom, you have a light spell that dispels the darkness in a small area. Good for playing with a Drow player.

Widen Spell: Detect Magic
It's an emanation. Think of 120 ft. of permanent magic sight instead of the 60. Applies to any relevant emanation or burst spell on the Permanency list.

Burning Spell: Wall of Fire
If you're setting up a perma-wall, why not make it the best?

The list goes on, there's a lot of metamagic that can apply to the list of Permanency spells for different reasons. Is there any ruling or FAQ preventing it? I can't find it at all in the spell itself (or if it would have an inflated GP cost to Permanency).

[OmniMage]

I can't think of a good reason why you couldn't make meta-magic version of spells permanent. The only requirements mentioned is the minimum caster level needed and the price you need to pay.

I suppose its possible that meta-magic version of spells could require a higher minimum caster level.

The price seems to be (caster level - 8) * 2500 gp.

[DungeonmasterCal]

I can't think of anywhere in the RAW that says it's not allowed, but in my homebrew, it definitely is something that can be done.

[Danny StarDust]

I think OmniMage is on spot, with the higher caster level requirements and the higher price.

[Kayerloth]

I too will agree with OmniMage. I think the main reason nothing is mentioned in RAW is the text of Permanency is essentially unchanged from earlier (much earlier) editions. They just didn't upgrade/edit the legacy text for changes in the game.

[OmniMage]

I wonder how many legacy spells exist that wasn't upgraded enough.

Looking back at DND 2.0, permanency was a level 8 spell that cost the caster 1 point of constitution to make spells permanent. Pretty step cost. No caster level was required for any spells. Fair enough considering the cost.

The spell lists the spells it will work on. You can do spell research to figure out if a non-listed spell could be made permanent. This works like spell research. It was though you were researching the spell normally.

A bit of trivia. Casting permanency was a required step for making permanent magic items. It was to make the spell "Enchant an item" permanent.

[OmniMage]

I stopped to analyze this spell in more detail. There is a relationship between minimum caster level and the spell level of the spell to be made permanent. Spells that are 0 or 1 require caster level 9. 2 is 10, 3 is 11, 4 is 12, 5 is 13, 6 is 14, 7 is 15, 8 is 16, and 9 is 17. So the formula is 8 + spell level (min 1). This works for full spell casters; bards, rangers, and paladins should be ignored. Use the lowest spell level offered.

There are exceptions: Gust of wind is 1 point higher, Symbol of fear is 1 point higher, and Symbol of sleep is 3 points higher. I don't know if these are errors, or if this was done for balance reasons.

Based upon this information, I would rule that a meta-magic spell should use the minimum caster level and cost of their modified spell level.

[Isaac Zephyr]

I knew the correlation already, which is why I was curious. Totally fair homebrew to adjust metamagic'd spells appropriately.

Purely RAW though it's just an oversight then? I know a lot of players who'd knick down my door if I charged them 10,000 GP for Dancing Lights to make a Drow player less of a hindrance. (And made them wait to level 12+ depending how fast the Drow is building Deeper Darkness).

Not to mention the unwritten cost of if they aren't a Wizard and are purchasing these spellcasting services. That's an expensive ball if 20 ft light.

[Ryze Kuja]

Isaac Zephyr wrote:

I knew the correlation already, which is why I was curious. Totally fair homebrew to adjust metamagic'd spells appropriately.

Purely RAW though it's just an oversight then? I know a lot of players who'd knick down my door if I charged them 10,000 GP for Dancing Lights to make a Drow player less of a hindrance. (And made them wait to level 12+ depending how fast the Drow is building Deeper Darkness).

Not to mention the unwritten cost of if they aren't a Wizard and are purchasing these spellcasting services. That's an expensive ball if 20 ft light.

I don't think it's an oversight. If you want to modify a spell with MM feats and then make it permanent, it just costs more gold to create what you want.