Well, it looks like this should put the debate of the RaW/RaI to bed.
The Reload rules
... Reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon both require a free hand. Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=228
Do absolutely include a "free" Regrip action for 2-h weapons that need reloading.
As discussed previously, this does make a big difference for Alchemists, and their Alchemical Crossbow.
It is 2-H, but you can shoot, drop a hand, do things w/ elixirs, ect, then later Reload + Shoot without loosing actions to the Regrip.
This "free" Regrip is what makes the weapon at all viable, IMO. It's still 2-actions per shot, and still limits when you can use that dropped hand.
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This rather appealing 1-H crossbow, the Sukgung, has an odd mechanic with using it in 2-H, and has text to specify that this mode switch is incompatible w/ the free Regrip inside Reload.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=341
Traits
Fatal Aim d12:It’s possible to hold the stock of this weapon under one arm so you can fire it with a single hand as long as the other hand isn’t holding a weapon, shield, or anything else you would need to move and position, to ensure the weapon doesn’t slip out from under your arm. However, if you use both hands, the weapon can make fatal attacks. When you wield the weapon in two hands, it gains the fatal trait with the listed damage die. Holding the weapon underarm stably enough to fire is significantly more complicated than just releasing one hand from the weapon, so to switch between the two grips, you must do so with an Interact action rather than Releasing or as part of reloading.
Funny enough, I think using the Sukgung in 2-H mode functions the same as the Alch Crossbow in regard to dropping a hand and using consumables.
If you were in 2-H mode, then you still can Regrip back into 2-H mode for free during a Reload.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sukgung user here. It is an interesting one. You can use quick draw to toss alchemical bombs and then reload back into two hand without losing actions, which is nice. But the weapons shear power makes spending actions on anything else a questionable proposition. I also haven't figured out a way to use a gunners bandolier or blazons of shared power in a particularly effective manner with it.
My current plan is to to use the Inventor archetype to merge the sukgung with the alchemical crossbow, so I have a close range option that lets me apply singular expertise to using up my daily bomb supply.
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Well, it looks like this should put the debate of the RaW/RaI to bed.
Not sure why you think that since you are quoting the exact same rules that we were all quoting and debating over in all of the previous threads on the subject.
While the arguments from before, such as every Reload required a free hand to perform due to it being an Interact, and as such it didn't matter if the hand was already free before the Reload started, ect, have not changed.
However, this text describing Sukgung's mode swap quirk independently repeats that you get a free Regrip inside the Reload. Afaik, this was not pointed to / mentioned last time.
I don't know how one could put both side by side and still honestly conclude that having a free hand prior to the Reload means you must spend an extra action to Regrip the 2-H crossbow.
Holding the weapon underarm stably enough to fire is significantly more complicated than just releasing one hand from the weapon, so to switch between the two grips, you must do so with an Interact action rather than Releasing or as part of reloading.
This text directly reinforces that re gripping the weapon is a part of reloading. If re gripping was not the norm, then there would be no need to exclude the "mode change" Interact action from reloading like that.
Having 2 different, isolated bits of text reinforcing the same rule is about as good as it gets for a proof, IMO. Many rules don't get that much.
Sukgung user here. It is an interesting one. You can use quick draw to toss alchemical bombs and then reload back into two hand without losing actions, which is nice. But the weapons shear power makes spending actions on anything else a questionable proposition. I also haven't figured out a way to use a gunners bandolier or blazons of shared power in a particularly effective manner with it.
My current plan is to to use the Inventor archetype to merge the sukgung with the alchemical crossbow, so I have a close range option that lets me apply singular expertise to using up my daily bomb supply.
Once things like Quick Draw get involved, there's a whole lot of neat / odd tricks, especially now that Swap is a thing.
You decide how you hold a weapon as you Draw it. You can now do something like Swap out the xbow, then chug the swapped consumable. You now have the weapon stashed and viable to be Quick Draw shot in either mode you desire.
You still needed an action to draw the consumable, but were able to work around the potential mode change Interact.
Neat stuff, and nothing about it seems OP or anything.
Yes, the Fatal Aim trait was debated extensively.
I might have found that if I searched for the Fatal Aim trait, which I did not.
Considering how much pushback there was inside an unrelated thread against the 2-H weapons getting Regrip inside Reload, I think there is merit to putting the two side by side, and removing the extra complication of melee / ranged mode switch that the thread seemed to focus on.
I'm guessing there are other convos about it, but a thread that lasted less than 12 hrs and fits into one page is not what I'd call an extensive debate.
I'm not sure why you would expect me to know about one thread from back in Feb, months before my first post.
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As far as that question goes. I don't know why you wouldn't be able to reload any combo weapon in melee mode, as you can reload it while just holding it and not wielding it at all.
This does not mean you get to mode swap. But if the stated conditions of free hand and ammo are met, then it seems not to break any rules, nor circumvent any balance safeguards.
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The other term to search for is Jezail since that was the Fatal Aim weapon of the time.
I don't necessarily expect you to know all of this initially, I am mostly trying to head off restarting the debate again. If the rules have actually changed then we can discuss it.
And they very well may have changed in the Remaster.