| SuperParkourio |
The feat makes Counterspell no longer require that the spell be prepared, but that's the only way to identify spells on sight. To use the feat in this way, you have to know that the spell being cast is in your spellbook, which means you have to Recognize the Spell. Quick Recognition allows you to do so as a free action, but only one action can be used per trigger. If you need to respond to the casting to Recognize the Spell, how can you respond to the casting again to Counterspell the spell?
| Ryze Kuja |
Recognize the Spell as a Free Action
Counterspell as a Reaction
Tbqh though, Paizo screwed up when they wrote their Counterspell rules/feats, especially when they made Recognize Spell feat cost a Reaction. Identifying a Spell used to be a free action Knowledge Arcana/Religion check to identify a spell in PF1e.
Personally, I use D&D 5E's Counterspell mechanics with PF2's Average DC's by Level to determine the Counterspell DC. It's so clean and uncomplicated and everyone is happy.
| Ryze Kuja |
You still have to choose an appropriate spell for the spell being casted, so you definitely have to Recognize the Spell first.
Clever Counterspell
Feat 12
Wizard
Source Core Rulebook pg. 212 4.0
Prerequisites Counterspell; Quick Recognition
You creatively apply your prepared spells to Counterspell a much wider variety of your opponents’ magic. Instead of being able to counter a foe’s spell with Counterspell only if you have that same spell prepared, you can use Counterspell as long as you have the spell the foe is casting in your spellbook. When you use Counterspell in this way, the prepared spell you expend must share a trait other than its tradition with the triggering spell. At the GM’s discretion, you can instead use a spell that has an opposing trait or that otherwise logically would counter the triggering spell (such as using a cold or water spell to counter fireball or using remove fear to counter a fear spell). Regardless of what spell you expend, you take a –2 penalty to your counteract check, though the GM can waive this penalty if the expended spell is especially appropriate.
| Ryze Kuja |
Quick Recognition already makes Recognizing the Spell a free action. The problem is that you can't respond to the same trigger with two actions, even if one of them is a free action.
You pretty much HAVE to allow your player to Recognize Spell as a free action during the same time as the Counterspell Reaction, otherwise Counterspell is worthless. Your PC's aren't going to have any fun when they Counterspell and then *guess* what school and level of the spell to use.
[free-action] Free Actions
Source Core Rulebook pg. 17 4.0
Free actions use this symbol: [free-action] . Free actions don’t require you to spend any of your three single actions or your reaction. A free action might have a trigger like a reaction does. If so, you can use it just like a reaction—even if it’s not your turn. However, you can use only one free action per trigger, so if you have multiple free actions with the same trigger, you have to decide which to use. If a free action doesn’t have a trigger, you use it like a single action, just without spending any of your actions for the turn.
Reactions in Encounters
Source Core Rulebook pg. 472 4.0
Your reactions let you respond immediately to what’s happening around you. The GM determines whether you can use reactions before your first turn begins, depending on the situation in which the encounter happens.Once your first turn begins, you gain your actions and reaction. You can use 1 reaction per round. You can use a reaction on anyone’s turn (including your own), but only when its trigger occurs. If you don’t use your reaction, you lose it at the start of your next turn, though you typically then gain a reaction at the start of that turn.
Some reactions are specifically meant to be used in combat and can change how the battle plays out drastically. One example of such a reaction is Attack of Opportunity, which fighters gain at 1st level.
Attack of Opportunity
[reaction]
Source Core Rulebook pg. 142 4.0
Trigger A creature within your reach uses a manipulate action or a move action, makes a ranged attack, or leaves a square during a move action it’s using.You lash out at a foe that leaves an opening. Make a melee Strike against the triggering creature. If your attack is a critical hit and the trigger was a manipulate action, you disrupt that action. This Strike doesn’t count toward your multiple attack penalty, and your multiple attack penalty doesn’t apply to this Strike.
This reaction lets you make a melee Strike if a creature within reach uses a manipulate or move action, makes a ranged attack, or leaves a square during a move action. The Triggering Moves diagram on page 474 illustrates examples of movements that might trigger an Attack of Opportunity from a creature without reach and one with reach.You’ll notice this reaction allows you to use a modified basic action, a Strike. This follows the rules on subordinate actions found on page 462. Because your Attack of Opportunity takes place outside of your turn, the attack roll doesn’t incur a multiple attack penalty.
Actions with Triggers
Source Core Rulebook pg. 462 4.0
You can use free actions that have triggers and reactions only in response to certain events. Each such reaction and free action lists the trigger that must happen for you to perform it. When its trigger is satisfied—and only when it is satisfied—you can use the reaction or free action, though you don’t have to use the action if you don’t want to.There are only a few basic reactions and free actions that all characters can use. You’re more likely to gain actions with triggers from your class, feats, and magic items.
Limitation on Triggers
Source Core Rulebook pg. 462 4.0
The triggers listed in the stat blocks of reactions and some free actions limit when you can use those actions. You can use only one action in response to a given trigger. For example, if you had a reaction and a free action that both had a trigger of “your turn begins,” you could use either of them at the start of your turn—but not both. If two triggers are similar, but not identical, the GM determines whether you can use one action in response to each or whether they’re effectively the same thing. Usually, this decision will be based on what’s happening in the narrative.This limitation of one action per trigger is per creature; more than one creature can use a reaction or free action in response to a given trigger.
I would talk to your DM about this verbiage: "If two triggers are similar, but not identical, the GM determines whether you can use one action in response to each or whether they’re effectively the same thing.", "You can use 1 reaction per round." and "A free action might have a trigger like a reaction does. If so, you can use it just like a reaction—even if it’s not your turn. However, you can use only one free action per trigger, so if you have multiple free actions with the same trigger, you have to decide which to use." You should be allowed to Recognize Spell and Counterspell in the same action, otherwise Counterspell is worthless. This is a no-brainer and your DM should agree, tbqf.
| breithauptclan |
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I would suggest checking back into this in about three and a half weeks.
If you need an answer before then, check with the other players at your table - especially the GM - and use a combination of the First Rule and the Ambiguous Rules rule to get fair game mechanics that will allow Clever Counterspell to work as described.
Don't get hung up on trivial details of how feats are worded and gritty specifics of how actions work and then conclude that the feat is unable to be used in an actual game.
| SuperParkourio |
I think it would make sense if the feat allowed Counterspell to have another trigger:
" or you successfully Recognize the Spell using Quick Recognition"
Now that I think about it, if the Quick Recognition crit fails, and the wrong spell is actually in the PC's spellbook, could the PC potentially waste a slot trying to match the wrong traits?
| Nelzy |
But they dont have the same trigger.
Quick Recognition uses tha same Trigger as Recognize Spell:
Trigger A creature within line of sight casts a spell that you don’t have prepared or in your spell repertoire, or a trap or similar object casts such a spell. You must be aware of the casting.
Counterspell:
Trigger A creature Casts a Spell that you have prepared.
and Clever Counterspell changes that to "in your spellbook" rather then "prepared"
its still not the same trigger as Quick Recognition so it should work fine.If anything it fall under "If two triggers are similar, but not identical, the GM determines whether you can use one action in response to each or whether they’re effectively the same thing."
but it never is RAW totaly against the rules to use both, its up to the gm.
and if the GM actively breaks written features of you class you might need to have a word with him why he things that way.
just as Ryze Kuja said ealyer.