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Urban bloodrager modifies bloodrage at all levels, Including mighty bloodrage and greater bloodrage. Since Prowler at World’s End modifies those these archetypes do not stack.
Urban bloodrager modifies bloodrage at all levels, Including mighty bloodrage and greater bloodrage. Since Prowler at World’s End modifies those these archetypes do not stack.
Bloodrage, Greater Bloodrage, and Mighty Bloodrage are seperate abilities, they don't behave like e.g Weapon Training. Urban Bloodrager only modifies Bloodrage without touching the other two, whereas Prowler at World's End only modifies Greater Bloodrage and Mighty Bloodrage.
Therefore, those two archetypes are indeed compatible.
I found it said that urban bloodrager altered greater bloodrage and mighty bloodrage somehow by the wording " This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater bloodrage and to +8 when she gains mighty bloodrage." of the "Controlled Bloodrage".
As worded, no, Greater Bloodrage and Mighty Bloodrage are not touched. The wording might even have been deliberately chosen to allow stacking archetypes that remove Greater Bloodrage and/or Mighty Bloodrage.
Sorry in advance, typing on mobile, so no fancy formating.
In my opinion the quote proves it shouldn't stack.
This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater bloodrage and to +8 when she gains mighty bloodrage." of the "Controlled Bloodrage".
Controlled bloodrage changes how bloodrage works, as well as greater and mighty bloodrage work.
Greater and Mighty Bloodrage otherwise would state an increase in the STR *and* CON Bonus (from +4 to +6/+8), which you don't even have, since controlled bloodrage gives a total bonus of +4 (which increases to +6/+8) which you have to distribute between STR/CON/DEX.
Also "normal" greater and mighty bloodrage would increase the bonus to will saves. You don't have a bonus to will saves from controlled bloodrage to begin with.
So for me, this concludes to (even though not explicitly stated) that controlled bloodrages changes how all instances of bloodrage (normal, greater, mighty) work and therfore you can't add prowler which would also alter greater and mighty bloodrage.
Sorry in advance, typing on mobile, so no fancy formating.
In my opinion the quote proves it shouldn't stack.
This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater bloodrage and to +8 when she gains mighty bloodrage." of the "Controlled Bloodrage".Controlled bloodrage changes how bloodrage works, as well as greater and mighty bloodrage work.
Greater and Mighty Bloodrage otherwise would state an increase in the STR *and* CON Bonus (from +4 to +6/+8), which you don't even have, since controlled bloodrage gives a total bonus of +4 (which increases to +6/+8) which you have to distribute between STR/CON/DEX.
Also "normal" greater and mighty bloodrage would increase the bonus to will saves. You don't have a bonus to will saves from controlled bloodrage to begin with.
So for me, this concludes to (even though not explicitly stated) that controlled bloodrages changes how all instances of bloodrage (normal, greater, mighty) work and therfore you can't add prowler which would also alter greater and mighty bloodrage.
I agree with this and that was what I pointed out in my original post. Urban Bloodrager changes how mighty bloodrage and greater bloodrage works. It does not have a neat little summary of it altering them, but they no longer work like the standard class abilities, so by definition they have been altered.
Controlled bloodrage changes how [...] greater and mighty bloodrage work.
Urban Bloodrager changes how mighty bloodrage and greater bloodrage works.
No, it doesn't. And not becasue there's no "this alters" text, but because no part of the Controlled Bloodrage description in any way modifies how the other two class features work. Controlled Bloodrage has effects build in that happen when the Bloodrager gains those class features, but that doesn't in any way alter the class features themself.
Also "normal" greater and mighty bloodrage would increase the bonus to will saves. You don't have a bonus to will saves from controlled bloodrage to begin with.
Not an issue, as you can't increase something that doesn't exist. That part of the Greater/Mighty Bloodrage desription simply doesn't do anything for an Urban Bloodrager. Similarly, Greater/Mighty Bloodrage can only increase bonuses that are there, so only do something if you allocate part of your bonus to strength and/or constitution.
All that said... the intearaction between Controlled Bloodrage and Greater/Mighty Bloodrage is weird, and I'm fairly sure unintended. Urban Bloodrager should either alter Greater Bloodrage and Mighty Bloodrage, or contain language that makes Controlled Bloodrage ignore them. As written, though, it doesn't, and using the RAW doesn't break the game or anything.
"No, it doesn't. And not becasue there's no "this alters" text, but because no part of the Controlled Bloodrage description in any way modifies how the other two class features work."
english is not my native language so correct me if i'm wrong.
without the Controlled bloodrage ability, the greater and mighty bloodrage would have increased the bonus to str and con while bloodraging. with it it changes to con,dex or str. that mean that abilities from this archtype alter the mighty and greater bloodrage abilities. no?
"When an urban bloodrager rages, she does not gain the normal benefits. Instead, she can apply a +4 morale bonus to her Constitution, Dexterity, or Strength. This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater bloodrage and to +8 when she gains mighty bloodrage"
unless you say that he gain both the normal greater and mighty bonus AND the controlled bloodrage alternative bonuses?
the way i see it. urban bloodrager changes normal bloodrage and that in turn changes greater and mighty bloodrage. but the total effect is that the archtype has different abilities for both the normal bloodrage and the greater and mighty abilities.
without the Controlled bloodrage ability, the greater and mighty bloodrage would have increased the bonus to str and con while bloodraging. with it it changes to con,dex or str. that mean that abilities from this archtype alter the mighty and greater bloodrage abilities. no?
The thing is that a) Controlled Bloodrage doesn't say it doesn't benefit from Greater/Mighty Bloodrage, and b) those two class features don't really care what your rage bonuses are. As I've said upthread, you can't increase something that doesn't exist, but otherwise, yes, RAW the increases do in fact stack if you allocate part of the variable bonus to strength and/or constitution.
Controlled Bloodrage contains language that mimics Mighty and Greater Bloodrage and is (I assume) supposed to replace the effects of those two class features - but it doesn't actually touch them. It could simply say "When the urban bloodrager gains greater bloodrage, instead of increasing the morale bonus to strength and constitution, this bonus increases to +6. <dito for Mighty BR>". The archetype could also have Greater Bloodrage and Mighty Bloodrage features listed that increase Controlled Bloodrage's bonus (with that base ability not listing increases).
But the actual archetype as written in the book does neither. Maybe the author (of Urban Barbarian, really) didn't understand the interaction, or maybe they were too pressed for space and went with the Paizo favourite "people will figure out what we mean" route. In any case, RAW is what it is.
Greater Bloodrage says "At 11th level, when a bloodrager enters a bloodrage, the morale bonus to his Strength and Constitution increases to +6". There are two conditions, the level req, and to "enter bloodrage". Since "A controlled bloodrage still counts as a bloodrage for the purposes of any spells, feats, and other effects.", the an 11th+ level Bloodrager fulfills both conditions, and thus the class feature does what is says it does, regardless of which other class feature might have a similar effect.
If you set your Controlled Bloodrage to be +2 Str/+4 Dex at 11th level, RAW Greater Bloodrage increase the strength bonus to +6. And yes, that means a +2/+2/+2 spread grants +2 dex (and no loss to AC) for the price of +3 to will saves. I'll let everyone decide for themselves whether this is worthy of houseruling. Just remember that this lowers the bonus to the primary ability score for a dex-based BR, or has you play 10 levels withotu a con-bonus for a str-based BR.
Now, I think the case of stacking has a very clear RAI. That's different for the topic of this thread, though, because whether or not the archetype deliberately doesn't alter Greater/Mighty Bloodage is most definitely not clear.
ok.
so to sum it up.
for any gm who rule by that the urban bloodrager doesn't get both the benefit of base bloodrager's greater & might bloodrage and the benefit that is listed in the controlled bloodrage for it - it would be an altered ability and can't stack. (which is AGAINST RAW but a lot think is logical)
and for any who rule by RAW and let them gain both of the bonuses (with whatever stacking it might end as) it is not altered and the archtypes can stack.
Controlled Bloodrage: When an urban bloodrager rages, she does not gain the normal benefits. Instead, she can apply a +4 morale bonus to her Constitution, Dexterity, or Strength. This bonus increases to +6 when she gains greater bloodrage and to +8 when she gains mighty bloodrage.b She can apply the full bonus to one ability score or split the bonus between several scores in increments of 2. When using a controlled bloodrage, an urban bloodrager gains no bonus on Will saves, takes no penalties to AC, and can still use Charisma-, Dexterity-, and Intelligence-based skills. A controlled bloodrage still counts as a bloodrage for the purposes of any spells, feats, and other effects. This ability alters bloodrage.
Greater Bloodrage (Su): At 11th level, when a bloodrager enters a bloodrage, the morale bonus to his Strength and Constitution increases to +6 and the morale bonus on his Will saves increases to +3. In addition, upon entering a bloodrage, the bloodrager can apply the effects a bloodrager spell he knows of 2nd level or lower to himself. The spell must have a range of touch or personal. If the spell’s duration is greater than 1 round, it instead lasts for the duration of the bloodrage. This use consumes a bloodrager spell slot, as if he had cast the spell; he must have the spell slot available to take advantage of this effect.
So, what you are saying is that an 11th level urban bloodrager gets a +6to his STR or DEX, and a +6 to his CON and +3 to his will save, but he does not take a penalty to AC and can use CHA, DEX and INT based skills? That makes the urbanbloodrager way stronger than the standard bloodrager. The way I understand it the 11th level urban blood ranger has a +6 bonus he can divide up among STR, CON or DEX, gets no bonus to will saves or penalty to AC, and can use CHA, DEX or INT based skills. Eliminating something from a class ability is still altering it. Urban bloodrager eliminates the bonus one of the two bonuses to stats and the bonus to will saves on greater bloodrage.
First sentence of controlled bloodrage tells us everything we need to know.
When an urban bloodrager rages, she does not gain the normal benefits.
Bloodrage, greater bloodrage, and mighty bloodrage are all altered by this.
At first level the normal benefits are +4 str/con, +2 will.
At 11th level the normal benefits are +6 str/con, +3 will, 2nd level spell.
At 20th level the normal benefits are +8 str/con, +4 will, any level spell.
(I suspect it is not supposed to remove the spell ability, but if we want strict RAW, here we are...)