Toragdan Morality

[Anorak]

Hey so okay, I've been really digging this AP as I love Dwarves, especially the nuanced approach you've gone with this edition of Dwarves and Torag. The focus on their moral complexities has had me thinking and adds a lot of depth. However, before I come to a conclusion I want to ask who was was the writer for this approach. Also was it a narrative choice for exploring certain themes, or does it reflect a broader perspective on morality? I'm genuinely curious about the thought process behind this aspect of the story.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

It's partially in anticipation of the Remaster/ORC version of Pathfinder removing alignment from the game, but also a response to bioessentialism that plagues fantasy settings.

Basically you can't colour code evil into your elves, dwarves and dragons any more.

[Virellius]

I REALLY feel like, after reading that, Torag MAY be our god on his way out. What better way to deal with the issues of Torag's questionable history than to show what that history causes first hand?

[PitaEnigma]

I just got the third volume of the AP in my digital downloads and it discusses exactly this.

[John Compton]

Torag's complicated alignment and ethos have been a talking point in Pathfinder circles for most of a decade, as he's always pushed the envelope (or perhaps blurred the line) on what it means to be or redefine "Good"—certainly as it regards fighting the enemies of one's people. When I joined the Adventure Path team and took over the Sky King's Tomb project, I made a conscious effort to have the Adventure Path explore more of Torag's faith, especially the ramifications of his violent edict on the past and present. I made sure the Adventure Path calls attention to these quandaries, presenting the dilemma(s) to the PCs and exploring the ideas while leaving it open to the players to judge what's right and potentially challenge old dogma.

[The Raven Black]

Maybe Torag was not LG all that long time ago. Deities have changed their alignment before.

I would love for Taargick's remorse and regrets to have been the first pebble of an avalanche that spurred Torag to become LG.

[Anorak]

John Compton wrote:

...I made a conscious effort to have the Adventure Path explore more of Torag's faith, especially the ramifications of his violent edict on the past and present. I made sure the Adventure Path calls attention to these quandaries, presenting the dilemma(s) to the PCs and exploring the ideas while leaving it open to the players to judge what's right and potentially challenge old dogma.

Thanks for the reply, John! I wasn't aware of the ongoing Torag discussion (I'm more of a Moradin from Forgotten Realms guy). After reaching that section of the book, I spent last night working through the dilemmas you presented. I really appreciate how the encounter is structured. It's refreshing to see a scenario where players have the freedom to define what victory means to them, or even question if it's a victory at all.

As for Orcs and Dwarves, for me, I have always seen them as the flip side of the same coin. With Dwarves representing humanity's orderly, civilized, side and Orcs as our darker, bestial, hunter selves. With Moradin/Torag and Gruumsh being the deity versions of those aspects. And I've always loved playing Orcs to express, via a character, working to master those less orderly aspects.

Which seems to be similar to what Piaizo has done so far with what it means to be Orcish. At least from what I've recently been reading on the PFWiki.

[SatiricalBard]

John Compton wrote:

Torag's complicated alignment and ethos have been a talking point in Pathfinder circles for most of a decade, as he's always pushed the envelope (or perhaps blurred the line) on what it means to be or redefine "Good"—certainly as it regards fighting the enemies of one's people. When I joined the Adventure Path team and took over the Sky King's Tomb project, I made a conscious effort to have the Adventure Path explore more of Torag's faith, especially the ramifications of his violent edict on the past and present. I made sure the Adventure Path calls attention to these quandaries, presenting the dilemma(s) to the PCs and exploring the ideas while leaving it open to the players to judge what's right and potentially challenge old dogma.

I am really looking forward to getting book 3 to dive into all this!

[SatiricalBard]

John Compton wrote:

Torag's complicated alignment and ethos have been a talking point in Pathfinder circles for most of a decade, as he's always pushed the envelope (or perhaps blurred the line) on what it means to be or redefine "Good"—certainly as it regards fighting the enemies of one's people. When I joined the Adventure Path team and took over the Sky King's Tomb project, I made a conscious effort to have the Adventure Path explore more of Torag's faith, especially the ramifications of his violent edict on the past and present. I made sure the Adventure Path calls attention to these quandaries, presenting the dilemma(s) to the PCs and exploring the ideas while leaving it open to the players to judge what's right and potentially challenge old dogma.

Hi John, I've just finished reading book 3, and I have a lot of thoughts about what you've attempted here, which I am deeply appreciative of. But before I respond with the care that your efforts deserve, I have a Golarion Lore meta-question: does the Golarion setting allow for the concept of clerics and theologians doing things their deities would not approve of?

Are the gods removed enough from affairs that clerics can be wrong? Or does the daily granting of spells and class features fundamentally require that we say that if someone like Ferghaz was a powerful cleric, they are axiomatically correct in their theology and anything they say is ordained by their deity, must in fact have been ordained by said deity?

I'm thinking about how most Christians today consider the Crusades and associated Papal-sanctified massacres to not, in fact, have been ‘ordained by God’; or how some Christians and Jews now have a critical reading of the so-called 'texts of terror' in the Hebrew Scriptures, in which they are not considered to be genuinely reflective of YHWH's will so much as people claiming divine mandate for their own deeds; and countless other examples from those and other religions. And wondering how that might inform our approach to rethinking Toragdan theology, especially the edict against "showing mercy to the enemies of your people".

As book 3 asks, "was Torag ... wrong?" I am wondering what established space is available to add "... or was it his High Priests?"

(Leaving aside questions about whether Ferghaz was entirely wrong, which I will return to in another posts)

[magnuskn]

Well, check out lore about the "Cult of the Dawnflower" for pointers to answers for that question.

[The Raven Black]

magnuskn wrote:

Well, check out lore about the "Cult of the Dawnflower" for pointers to answers for that question.

Not that sure though. IIRC Cult of the Dawnflower was something that should not have been in Golarion due to Sarenrae's own values.

So I am not sure what was written about it before fits with the current canon on deities approving / turning a blind eye to their Clerics' wrongdoings.

[SatiricalBard]

A quick perusal of a long Paizo forum discussion on the Cult of the Dawnflower, an older post on Toragdan theology and the problem of the 'lawful good god of genocide, and indeed the prologue to book 3, does seem to point to a consensus (or at least a majority view) that Golarion cosmology does indeed have room for even powerful clerics doing and saying things that might not be fully in line with their deities.

Book 3 Prologue, on the inside front cover:

Quote:

The Price of Sky:

The Quest for Sky complete, Taargick should have celebrated, yet he instead questioned if it had all been worth it. “Of course,” his mighty archon companion reassured him. “You carved a new homeland for your people, you scattered your foes, and you laid the foundation for a glorious future—a paragon of Torag’s tenets.” Taargick nodded sadly, responding, “Yet from an orc’s perspective, I have not built something extraordinary but rather shattered societies on our march to the surface.” He repeated his question, and the archon hesitated, not knowing whose interpretation was most just in Torag’s eyes.

[John Compton]

SatiricalBard wrote:

Hi John, I've just finished reading book 3, and I have a lot of thoughts about what you've attempted here, which I am deeply appreciative of. But before I respond with the care that your efforts deserve, I have a Golarion Lore meta-question: does the Golarion setting allow for the concept of clerics and theologians doing things their deities would not approve of?

Are the gods removed enough from affairs that clerics can be wrong? Or does the daily granting of spells and class features fundamentally require that we say that if someone like Ferghaz was a powerful cleric, they are axiomatically correct in their theology and anything they say is ordained by their deity, must in fact have been ordained by said deity?

I'm thinking about how most Christians today consider the Crusades and associated Papal-sanctified massacres to not, in fact, have been ‘ordained by God’; or how some Christians and Jews now have a critical reading of the so-called 'texts of terror' in the Hebrew Scriptures, in which they are not considered to be genuinely reflective of YHWH's will so much as people claiming divine mandate for their own deeds; and countless other examples from those and other religions. And wondering how that might inform our approach to rethinking...

A few thoughts:

I don't want to paint with too broad a brush here. There's definitely space for variation in faiths, deities, and to what degree each monitors and reacts to each other's actions and desires. Let's look at Torag.

The tremors that cued the Quest for Sky involved a vague prophecy delivered to the dwarves years or even generations earlier. Throughout the Quest for Sky, dwarven priests no doubt received some divine guidance, but there was plenty of activity undertaken by dwarves that was their own decision. So yes, there's definitely the potential that Torag's priesthood misinterpreted or overstepped in guiding the Quest for Sky, spurring more violence.

We know from books such as Lost Omens Gods & Magic that a deity might impose a curse or grant a boon based on a mortal's behavior. Usually, this seems to be a mortal worshiper. We also know from spells/rituals like atonement that divinely empowered characters can lose access to that power through serious infractions. However, non-worshipers seem to receive these interventions, too, often when engaged directly with that deity's sacred sites or objectives. I'm reminded, for example, of a boon PCs can earn early in Legacy of Fire for their behavior in a particular deity's abandoned temple.

We also now know that Taargick had a celestial advising him somewhat frequently, and that celestial identified no fault in the "Stab your way to the surface" approach. That brings into question whether divine servitors of a deity 100% match that deity's philosophies, whether servitors have free will, and/or whether a divine servitor directly channels their deity's thoughts and commands. My impression in the Lost Omens setting is that servitors are excellent but not perfect, using their instincts and insights to do what they think is right. This makes me posit that Taarick's companion provides insight into Torag's will without being a direct mouthpiece.

Ultimately, dogma and reality are going to clash, demanding discretion and compromise. Did Torag know exactly how grim the Quest for Sky would be before it began? Did he watch dwarves respond violently, realize the endeavor was out of hand, and shrug to accept that this bloody ascent was the new reality? Did Torag try to redirect dwarves' behavior only to experience pushback from opportunistic priests?

There are a variety of answers. Sky King's Tomb calls a lot of this into question through the PCs' discoveries and dialogues, and the Adventure Path doesn't provide an absolute answer because it's up to each group to decide for themselves. Whether you condemn the priests, condemn the deity, condemn the circumstances, or something else, it was a messy period in history with no clean answer. What will the PCs uncover, what will they share with the world, and how will these discoveries shape dwarven society and the Lost Omens setting going forward.

You decide.

[The Raven Black]

John Compton wrote:

SatiricalBard wrote:

Hi John, I've just finished reading book 3, and I have a lot of thoughts about what you've attempted here, which I am deeply appreciative of. But before I respond with the care that your efforts deserve, I have a Golarion Lore meta-question: does the Golarion setting allow for the concept of clerics and theologians doing things their deities would not approve of?

Are the gods removed enough from affairs that clerics can be wrong? Or does the daily granting of spells and class features fundamentally require that we say that if someone like Ferghaz was a powerful cleric, they are axiomatically correct in their theology and anything they say is ordained by their deity, must in fact have been ordained by said deity?

I'm thinking about how most Christians today consider the Crusades and associated Papal-sanctified massacres to not, in fact, have been ‘ordained by God’; or how some Christians and Jews now have a critical reading of the so-called 'texts of terror' in the Hebrew Scriptures, in which they are not considered to be genuinely reflective of YHWH's will so much as people claiming divine mandate for their own deeds; and countless other examples from those and other religions. And wondering how that might inform our approach to rethinking...

A few thoughts:

I don't want to paint with too broad a brush here. There's definitely space for variation in faiths, deities, and to what degree each monitors and reacts to each other's actions and desires. Let's look at Torag.

The tremors that cued the Quest for Sky involved a vague prophecy delivered to the dwarves years or even generations earlier. Throughout the Quest for Sky, dwarven priests no doubt received some divine guidance, but there was plenty of activity undertaken by dwarves that was their own decision. So yes, there's definitely the potential that Torag's priesthood misinterpreted or overstepped in guiding the Quest for Sky, spurring more violence.

We know from books such as Lost Omens Gods &...

Fabulous insights. Thanks a great lot for your answer.

I sure wish the PCs' deeds will help Torag come to terms with all this and become a better god, just like the Ghlaunder incident did for Desna and Gormuz for Sarenrae.

That would feel awesome.