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It's kind of telling that a lot of the defenses of the status quo really have to dive into the fringes of the system to find real problems (i.e. fretting over a wizard jumping through a bunch of hoops to get crit spec).
Ultimately it's a mechanic that's not going anywhere, isn't really that big of a deal either way, but also feels a little bit like a failed concept because it doesn't accomplish much.
This is my impression as well. Class DC as its own mechanic feels poorly utilized, and I feel part of it is because it's kept separate from spell DC to the point where it can't be allowed to do much on its own at all. Really, both mechanics plug into the same defense, i.e. saving throws, and often achieve the same mechanical goals, so while it's understandable for Paizo to want martial classes to jump through a few more hoops to opt into spellcasting, the current implementation I think leaves to be desired. It's frustrating to deal with some of these arguments for the status quo, though, as many of the catastrophes the separation supposedly protects against exist already in game, e.g. Cloistered Clerics with legendary crit spec DCs, and are completely unproblematic, so it's just arguing against wilful ignorance.
What are you even talking about? Currently Cleric doesn't have any proficiency in Class DC. Warpriest specifically can use their Spellcasting DC for weapon critical specializations. Warpriest couldn't use their Spellcasting DC for other effects that ask for Class DC.
And so does the Cloistered Cleric. Just because it apparently has to be spelled out: the Cloistered Cleric's fourth doctrine, obtained at 11th level, gives the Cloistered Cleric the crit spec effect of their deity's favored weapon, using their spell DC if necessary. The Cloistered Cleric's spell DC goes up to legendary proficiency, ergo Cloistered Clerics get legendary proficiency on their crit spec DCs. You are crying wolf over a mechanic that already exists in game and is completely unproblematic.
That also requires using a consumable or limited per day magic item. That is quite a bit different than having a Cleric suddenly able to have critical specialization effects of their weapons at maximum DC permanently, or having Swashbuckler use their Class DC for their archetype spellcasting proficiency.
What, and spells don't use a limited resource? You really are grasping at straws here.
Thaumaturge has a similar feat: Scroll Thaumaturgy. That doesn't mean that this is going to (or should) become a universal ability of all classes. Quite the contrary. Having these types of feats is a special ability of these particular classes.
Giving a class spellcasting is a special ability. Nobody here is asking to make literally every class a spellcaster.
Kinetecist can't use that feat to cast Fear or slow, or most actual debuffs. that feats mostly lets them do more blasting spells. So you completely missed the point of my comment.
What are you even talking about? You keep acting like Kineticists don't have access to crowd control or debuffs, but that's what several of their elements revolve around, far more than blasting. You seem to have convinced yourself that the Kineticist is about nothing more than infinite AoE blasting, when that is only one of the many builds the class can adopt. You're also acting like every caster can cast every spell from every tradition right out the box, which is just not how spellcasting works in Pathfinder.
The war-priest is also an outlier in a game that mostly expected casters to not have/not to use a class DC.
Not even the Warpriest, the Cloistered Cleric too. Neither breaks the game even with a crit spec DC that beats that of martial classes, so you're just making excuses here.
I can't imagine the debates that would have happened if a Kinetecist could do all day blasting and then could also use archetype slots to throw out a Synthesia at level proficiency when the situation calls for it.
As opposed to a Psychic, who outputs massive rechargeable damage and can cast Fear, Slow, and Synesthesia without even needing to multiclass?
Well, you apparently have all the answers that you need. Enjoy.
I am not saying the Kinetecist can't do things besides blasting. I had a support kinetecist in play not too long a go. Perhaps my previous comments erred to close to focusing the blasting part.
So let me try and reframe the point I was trying to get across. The developers balanced the kinetecist on having a much more limited abilities compared to actual spellcasters, at the cost of those abilities being at will all day. This is a common and well known fact. The in class feat that lets them use spell items with their dc limits it to spells with the tag of their elements. Once again, focusing it on a naroow and thematic set of abilities. I assumed Kinetic activation was the 2nd level feat you had been talking about. Hence me bringing up the type of spells a Kineticist has access too. The ultimate point I was bringing up that it is clear in the design that thry want to keep the way in which these things scale seperate in pf2e.
I am not sure why you think, I think that all casters can cast all spells from every tradition. I picked 3 spells for very specific reasons.
I
-They we're all stromg debuff spells.
-At least one of them was already in the thread.
-Kinetecist can't replicate the effects or do things simillar (this is at least true for fear and synthesia. I would need to double check if kinetecist has any slow abilities).
- Fear *is* on all 4 spell list and slow is on 3 of the 4 list. Syhthesia is an outlier, but via multiclassing and the new way spell profiencicy scaling works any int of charisma based caster(most of them in the game) can pick up a casting of it and be able to use it at the same bonus to their main class spellcasting.
Lastly I will explain why I focused on blasting. The Kinetecist has gotten a lot of praise and backlash for being good at blasting in comparison to casters. Backlash from those who think casters are weak. So I was pointing out that if class dc and spellcasting dc were one and the same, you could have people complaining that a multiclass kinetecist can do the thing they want to be able to do all day and take the neat tricks that casters were supposed to get in returns, people would be even more upset. Now i did acknowledge that kinetecist wouldnt use their full bonus, they would have to a casting stat, but they would still be at legendsry proficency and probably using the kintecists second highest stat. Now then I will admit this isn't as strong of an argument as I initially thought. Because although ive seen those arguments, it does come dangerously close to, "making up a guy to get mad at." For my liking.
I'll also concede on the cleric point although If I am remembercing correctly the cleric is still an outlier when it comes this.
But st
Well, you apparently have all the answers that you need. Enjoy.
Unironically, yes: the absolute best answer given in this discussion was Captain Morgan's early on, where they suggested that Paizo deliberately wanted to make it less convenient for martial classes to multiclass into casters. That's something I can absolutely believe. By contrast, claiming that casters can't access legendary crit spec or that the Kineticist can't use their class DC to cast spells are both provably false statements, whereas stuff like "removing spell DC as its own mechanic would remove class DC and that's bad" makes strictly no sense. I'm sorry to say, but I don't think you've contributed very much to this discussion.
The developers balanced the kinetecist on having a much more limited abilities compared to actual spellcasters, at the cost of those abilities being at will all day. This is a common and well known fact. The in class feat that lets them use spell items with their dc limits it to spells with the tag of their elements.
That limited spellcasting still gives them access to the entire elemental spell list, which includes a variety of utility, debuffs, and crowd control, all of which the Kineticist can output with the right feat. You are correct that the class trades off versatility for at-will abilities, but the Kineticist nonetheless can choose from an immense selection of different effects, and thus fill out a subset of a primal caster's niche. They clearly do things normally done by casters, which is why they're allowed to cast spells with legendary proficiency in the first place. This once again also ignores how the Psychic, who is also designed to blast lots without attrition, can cast literally all of the spells you mentioned right out of the box. I can certainly agree that Paizo probably doesn't want certain classes accessing the strengths of casters too easily, but the Kineticist is quite possibly the worst example to pick for this argument.
Well, you apparently have all the answers that you need. Enjoy.Unironically, yes: the absolute best answer given in this discussion was Captain Morgan's early on, where they suggested that Paizo deliberately wanted to make it less convenient for martial classes to multiclass into casters. That's something I can absolutely believe. By contrast, claiming that casters can't access legendary crit spec or that the Kineticist can't use their class DC to cast spells are both provably false statements, whereas stuff like "removing spell DC as its own mechanic would remove class DC and that's bad" makes strictly no sense. I'm sorry to say, but I don't think you've contributed very much to this discussion.
The developers balanced the kinetecist on having a much more limited abilities compared to actual spellcasters, at the cost of those abilities being at will all day. This is a common and well known fact. The in class feat that lets them use spell items with their dc limits it to spells with the tag of their elements.That limited spellcasting still gives them access to the entire elemental spell list, which includes a variety of utility, debuffs, and crowd control, all of which the Kineticist can output with the right feat. You are correct that the class trades off versatility for at-will abilities, but the Kineticist nonetheless can choose from an immense selection of different effects, and thus fill out a subset of a primal caster's niche. They clearly do things normally done by casters, which is why they're allowed to cast spells with legendary proficiency in the first place. This once again also ignores how the Psychic, who is also designed to blast lots without attrition, can cast literally all of the spells you mentioned right out of the box. I can certainly agree that Paizo probably doesn't want certain classes accessing the strengths of casters too easily, but the Kineticist is quite possibly the worst example to pick for this argument.
I think you would want to reread kinetic activation again. It is only spells that by default have the same tag as your elememtal. So only spells that naturally have the fire tag, that only naturally have the water tag etc. It makes no mention of the elemental spell list.
The Psychic I am going to agree to disagree. From my perspective the focus spell cantrips are really cool and help keep the psychic sustained but have a different power level compared to Kineteicst Impulses. This is because psychic still has spells still.
But again i'm bowing out
Interesting. According to AoN, there are either 162 or 177 common spells (not cantrips) with one of the six elemental traits (162 if you search for any of the six, 177 if you search one at a time and add them up). I haven't looked through the lists to see if I can identify why the difference, but the breakdown for "one at a time" is: 32 air, 34 earth, 41 fire, 18 metal, 36 water, and 16 wood.
Searching the elemental spell list for common spells (not cantrips) there are 192 hits. Which means there are more than a dozen spells on the elemental list that don't have an elemental trait, which means a kineticist can't activate them with kinetic activation. Two that jumped out to me immediately are mage armor and magic weapon.
I think you would want to reread kinetic activation again. It is only spells that by default have the same tag as your elememtal. So only spells that naturally have the fire tag, that only naturally have the water tag etc. It makes no mention of the elemental spell list.
Barring a handful of exceptions, virtually every spell in the elemental spell list has an elemental trait. That is the point of the spell list, and I cited it as an example of the immense breadth of effects elemental spells can achieve. The fact of the matter is that the Kineticist is far more versatile than you're giving them credit.
The Psychic I am going to agree to disagree. From my perspective the focus spell cantrips are really cool and help keep the psychic sustained but have a different power level compared to Kineteicst Impulses. This is because psychic still has spells still.
The Psychic can exceed the Kineticist's own damage output thanks to their amps and Unleash Psyche. They are explicitly designed to be good at repeated blasting, and pay for it with fewer spell slots, even if those clearly still also give them a measure of support and crowd control.