Hi,
We have a heated debate about reincarnating sorcerer who died early on an adventuring day. (Getting mauled by multiple crits was no joy for this character).
Now the party is able to use reincarnate ritual ( https://2e.aonprd.com/Rituals.aspx?ID=35 ) and bring the character back.
Considering normal success reincarnate state: " As critical success, except the new body has 1 HP and no spells prepared or points in any pools. [...] "
In My opinion, Sorcerer should not lose any spellcasting as he has no spells prepared, only spells known and spell slots, and reincarnate does not make you lose or extend your remaining spell slots. The rest is unambiguous, Sorcerer will be at 1HP with 0 focus points and all negative conditions.
Am I right in this interpretation?
If the intended effect was to lose all spellcasting it could read "You extend all your remaining spell slots".
IMO just like you start with 0 focus points and no prepared spells you also starts with all your spell slots used too. Probably the designers missed about spontaneous casters. But it's pretty clear to me that you starts with all your resources exhausted and need to take a full rest to recover them.
Or simply "any pools" means this to me.
I can see it working both ways. Designers are aware of the difference between spontaneous and prepared spellcasters. So it struck me as weird to word reincarnate that way.
Interesting interaction would be for a wizard with a Spell substitution thesis. If you don't lose spell slots, could you spend time to re-prepare them again using this feature?
Similar to regaining focus points by refocusing.
You still retain some abilities. You still have your staff prepared for example and can use it normally.
And there is a cantrip problem. Prepared spellcaster just empties their slots and can't use any, but spontaneous casters don't have slots for their cantrips so they should retain the ability to cast them as normal.
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So you believe that you are in good faith arguing that prepared casters should have to end their adventuring day after getting a regular success from the ritual - no spell slots, no cantrips even - but spontaneous casters should get the results of critical success instead - a bit of Treat Wounds later and they are good to go. And that this is fair and intended.
So you believe that you are in good faith arguing that prepared casters should have to end their adventuring day after getting a regular success from the ritual - no spell slots, no cantrips even - but spontaneous casters should get the results of critical success instead - a bit of Treat Wounds later and they are good to go. And that this is fair and intended.
I'm not trying to rule one way or the other. I'm trying to get better understanding of the rules and if I could help it clarify for later use.
This ritual as is of now creates ambiguity if not for the spell slots then with the cantrips. It is an extremely edge case of reincarnating someone mid-battle and I agree it is more intended as a downtime activity.Saying this, after discussion, It comes to my understanding that the intended effect is full-blown exhaustion, no spells slots, prepared or otherwise, and I'm willing to rule and advocate this as such.
Then again ambiguity remains in the written words of the ritual. This discussion is a prime example of RAW vs RAI if you try to stick to the RAW as close as possible.
Then again ambiguity remains in the written words of the ritual. This discussion is a prime example of RAW vs RAI if you try to stick to the RAW as close as possible.
Yes. And from the Ambiguous Rules rule by RAW, RAI wins.
We have a small collection of 'broken RAW' rules that will probably get errata - maybe even in the Remaster. But even if they don't get errata, running the game by strict RAW can cause problems. And balance problems - even ones caused by strict RAW - are very glaring in such a tightly balanced game system.
Interesting interaction would be for a wizard with a Spell substitution thesis.
No Spell substitution requires that the slot still have a prepared spell in it. Otherwise Spell substitution will become a super refocus.
Similar to regaining focus points by refocusing.
The pre-remaster refocus requires that you have used a focus spell before refocus so you didn't used any focus spell with your new body today so you are also unable to refocus too.
You still retain some abilities. You still have your staff prepared for example and can use it normally.
And there is a cantrip problem. Prepared spellcaster just empties their slots and can't use any, but spontaneous casters don't have slots for their cantrips so they should retain the ability to cast them as normal.
Staff chars is one of your pools they are empty now.
Cantrips is an interesting question. Spontaneous casters don't prepare them so they have an advantage here. As GM I would allow a reincarnated char to reprepare its cantrips within one-hour of preparation after being reincarnated. But this is more to prevent the spellcasters to become completely "unarmed" than any other reason.
Interesting interaction would be for a wizard with a Spell substitution thesis.No Spell substitution requires that the slot still have a prepared spell in it. Otherwise Spell substitution will become a super refocus.
You are right, my bad. Thanks for the clarification!
Similar to regaining focus points by refocusing.The pre-remaster refocus requires that you have used a focus spell before refocus so you didn't used any focus spell with your new body today so you are also unable to refocus too.
That is true if you haven't used focus spells earlier. But if you did then the question remains are you YOU within a new body? It's more of a philosophical debate at this point.
You still retain some abilities. You still have your staff prepared for example and can use it normally.
And there is a cantrip problem. Prepared spellcaster just empties their slots and can't use any, but spontaneous casters don't have slots for their cantrips so they should retain the ability to cast them as normal.Staff chars is one of your pools they are empty now.
Cantrips is an interesting question. Spontaneous casters don't prepare them so they have an advantage here. As GM I would allow a reincarnated char to reprepare its cantrips within one-hour of preparation after being reincarnated. But this is more to prevent the spellcasters to become completely "unarmed" than any other reason.
Staff charges are the property of staff not your own. So they should stay as they were before you died. Unless we bring up that you are no longer tied to the staff (by daily preparation). I would rule the staff stay as is but you are unable to fuel it with more charges. Reincarnate doesn't stop you from using other items like wands, scrolls or talismans
Then again ambiguity remains in the written words of the ritual. This discussion is a prime example of RAW vs RAI if you try to stick to the RAW as close as possible.Yes. And from the Ambiguous Rules rule by RAW, RAI wins.
We have a small collection of 'broken RAW' rules that will probably get errata - maybe even in the Remaster. But even if they don't get errata, running the game by strict RAW can cause problems. And balance problems - even ones caused by strict RAW - are very glaring in such a tightly balanced game system.
I agree with the cat here.
This interpretation of spontaneous casters getting benefit similar to critical success goes agains the hole idea of this ritual. This is simply "too good to be true" and needs to bo adjusted by the GM.That is true if you haven't used focus spells earlier. But if you did then the question remains are you YOU within a new body? It's more of a philosophical debate at this point.
It's really you into a new body:
You call forth the target's soul and attempt to incarnate it into a brand-new body...
Usually most spellcasters powers are body related than soul related (sorcerers due the bloodlines, psychic usually due their extraordinary brain supernatural capabilities but for oracles and summoners I don't know). Reincarnate is technically recreating a body with similar powers to the body that you have before but with some ancestries difference.
Anyway the main idea is that you start with your powers exhausted and needs some rest.
Staff charges are the property of staff not your own. So they should stay as they were before you died. Unless we bring up that you are no longer tied to the staff (by daily preparation). I would rule the staff stay as is but you are unable to fuel it with more charges. Reincarnate doesn't stop you from using other items like wands, scrolls or talismans
Staves have a complicated ruleset with them. They are linked to you character due the fact that you can prepare only one staff and that prepared and spontaneous casters have different special uses for them.
Technically nothing prevents a party with 2 casters to prepare 2 staves and share them but this is goes against the spirit of the rule and also looks like "true good to be true". For same reason I believe that staves have a similar link to the reincarnated character and its charge pool becomes empty with it.
Oh tnx I ignored this part. Anyway is already as I ruled it. This just enforces it.
So you believe that ... prepared casters should have to end their adventuring day after getting a regular success from the ritual - no spell slots, no cantrips even - but spontaneous casters should get the results of critical success instead - a bit of Treat Wounds later and they are good to go. And that this is fair and intended.
I certainly do. That's what it says. Spells and rituals do what they say they do. Nothing more or less.
Your interpretation makes for an okay house rule though, at least until it upsets your sorcerer player.
In any case, it makes sense that a vancian caster will be shaken by the ordeal and not remember the spells they prepared. Vancian spellcasting strains the mind as it is, and that kind of trauma makes it impossible to maintain the focus one needs to keep those spell matrixes readied in one's mind.
A sorcerer or other spontaneous caster though? Their spells are inborn, innate, a part of them. That's not something that can be lost or taken away. Not unless your GM bieves your new body is severed from the bloodline entirely, but that's a whole other can of house rule worms as nothing really covers losing your whole class.
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So you believe that ... prepared casters should have to end their adventuring day after getting a regular success from the ritual - no spell slots, no cantrips even - but spontaneous casters should get the results of critical success instead - a bit of Treat Wounds later and they are good to go. And that this is fair and intended.I certainly do. That's what it says. Spells and rituals do what they say they do. Nothing more or less.
That's fine. You do you.
Me: I'm putting this idea in the pile with not being able to Strike a ghost with a Ghost Touch greatsword. Literal RAW, but incredibly broken.
Your interpretation makes for an okay house rule though, at least until it upsets your sorcerer player.
Because the other option is to upset the Druid player because they don't get to do the same thing.
Not unless your GM bieves your new body is severed from the bloodline entirely,
LOL. Depends on how you describe in-game what a Bloodline means. Why wouldn't a new body have a new bloodline? Even if it is the same tradition or even the same Bloodline mechanics entry in the book (different Hag, or Genie, or Dragon bloodline).
that's a whole other can of house rule worms as nothing really covers losing your whole class.
The Retraining rules only say that it can't be done normally - or as the quote actually goes "without extraordinary circumstances". And one of the extraordinary circumstances that it mentions under 'Disallowed Options': Special Rituals.