If the waterfall is falling up - it is probably magical.
Detect Magic targets an entire area and indicates on the presence of magical auras. Not just items.
Are you asking this as a GM trying to follow the rules, or as a player trying to get information from the GM?
If you are the GM, you shouldn't be looking for loopholes in the rules to avoid telling your players information that they need to know in order to be successful at the game. The d20 is more than capable of introducing failure scenarios into the plot of the game in order to make things interesting. No need to contrive your own in addition.
If you are a player and the GM is actively trying not to let you know when you encounter something magical, check with them if they are actually trying to be part of a cooperative story-telling game. Because if that is not the case, then you either need a new GM or a new game system. PF2 is not a suitable game engine for a combative dynamic between the GM and the players.
We had a similar situation in our game, we came up with a way to make it work, but we want to know the RAW way.
Exactly like that. Nicely done.
My suspicion (completely unconfirmed) is that the game developers got burned out on trying to patch and plug all of the rules holes and edge cases in PF1. It is a never-ending task that gets no praise but plenty of criticism.
So for PF2 they gave us The First Rule and give the GM more explicit power and authority to rule on such edge cases.
Detect Magic only tells you that something in the room, other than what is on you and your buddies, is magical. The Rank 4 version tells you what square the strongest magical source is in. You can omit it from your next casting to find other squares containing strong magical sources. This will allow you to get the number of magical effects in the room. Nothing more.
For example, let there be a room with both a Magical Trap and a waterfall that is falling up. Detect Magic at Rank 1 would automatically alert you to the presence of something magical. Detect Magic at Rank 4 would tell you there are in fact 2 magic sources, which squares they are in, and which of the two is stronger. This could prompt you to take the Seek action (GM rolls vs stealth DC of the Trap) to see if you can spot a Trap. If someone spots it, everyone in the party knows which squares to avoid and anyone in the party that has the necessary skills immediately know the methods by which to disarm it, but not what the trap does if it is triggered (which is discovered via Identify Magic). As for the waterfall falling up, it is pretty obviously magical, so no roll would be necessary to spot it.
Once you know something in the room is magical (or in attempt to find which thing in that square is magical), Read Aura tells you what school of magic the thing you targeted is (unless its illusion). If the waterfall is an illusion, you might detect a conjuration or necromancy (if its a blood waterfall) aura instead - matching whatever the illusions intended effect was. In a less conspicuous example, like an illusory stone wall, it could emit no aura whatsoever when you Read Aura - which could cause you to overlook it. Read Aura ensures that, when you attempt to Identify Magic, you are investigating something that is in fact magical.
Once you know what thing is magical, you can spend 10 minutes inspecting that singular thing attempting to Identify Magic, after which the GM rolls a secret check against the DC of the effect. Then tells you what you know based on the Identify Magic level of success.
Furthermore, a waterfall is considered an Object. Here is an explicit example that confirms this. Therefore, Detect Magic and Read Aura would work on a waterfall.
Item and Object are synonymous terms; however, their exact definition is not explicitly defined anywhere in the rules and is a frequent topic of discussion on the forums.
If someone spots it, anyone in the party that has the necessary skills immediately know the methods by which to disarm it,
That's interesting, I've been making people roll Recall Knowledge to identify how to disable a hazard. What's the rules basis for this approach? Follow up question, how many actions does it take for a disable attempt if it doesn't use thievery and the hazard statblock fails to specify it?
I'm not sure if a Recall Knowledge check is needed in order to identify how to disable a hazard. But I don't see the rules for hazards specifying that it is needed.
The specific skill and DC required to disable a hazard are listed in the hazard's stat block. Like using Disable a Device, using these skills to disable a trap is a 2-action activity with the same degrees of success, though the activity might have different traits determined by the GM.
But whether it uses Thievery or something else, a disable attempt costs two actions.
If someone spots it, anyone in the party that has the necessary skills immediately know the methods by which to disarm it,That's interesting, I've been making people roll Recall Knowledge to identify how to disable a hazard. What's the rules basis for this approach? Follow up question, how many actions does it take for a disable attempt if it doesn't use thievery and the hazard statblock fails to specify it?
I will be honest, there is some ambiguity in the rules for this bit (because there are none). It is hashed out here in the forums - and probably in other threads.
One interpretation, and the one I adhere to, is:
There isnt mention of a Recall Knowledge check to discern how to Disable; nor is there coverage of Traps, Hazards, or Haunts in any Recall Knowledge entry, for any skill. Recall Knowledge: Crafting doesn't even mention mechanical traps. This interpretation claims that omission implies there is no roll needed/appropriate.
Think of it like this, using a real life example...
- - Despite never encountering one firsthand, the average person probably knows of the existence of bear traps, roughly what one looks like, and how one is triggered (has the required Perception proficiency-rank requirement to detect)
- - They might not notice one hidden under leaves, though (Perception roll vs the Stealth DC)
- - Even if they saw it and knew what it was, the average person probably wouldnt know how to Disable one without triggering it.
- - A Hunter/person trained in Survival (the needed proficiency rank and skill to Disable) would have been exposed to traps such as this, or perhaps even used this type of trap, before and have a better idea of how to disarm it (instantly knows it is Bear Trap and that they can use their Survival skills Disable it).
- - Alternatively, a person confident in their precision and reflexes (trained in Thievery) could intentionally trigger the trap in a way nobody gets hurt.
Pathfinder is much higher fantasy, so the 'average' adventurer would be exposed to significantly more peculiar traps (many of which are magical in nature) than a real life example could depict.
As such, exposure to the types of hazards and traps in PF2E are represented by Perception proficiency-rank, a WIS stat. And knowledge of how to Disable a hazard is represented by proficiency in the relevant Disable Device skills for that specific hazard.
As a side note, a GM could (at their discretion) offer insight as to the difficulty to Disable were the player to use the skill they believe they can Disable the Device with (if it is Easy, Hard, etc. for their level; based on the DC of the Hazard and the 10-5 DCs by Level table).
Using the Bear trap example, the Hunter might knows what it is and but only roughly how to Disable it (indicative of a Hard adjustment).
Detect Magic almost never works for magical traps. When it works, these traps are either 1 level or less, or obviously and visibly magical and not stealthy.
Huh? Do you have a source for this claim or has this just been your experience? Or a GM running it wrong?
I will grant you that is probably true below level 7.Detect Magic Rank 1 or Rank 3 can be a bit unreliable, but Detect Magic Rank 4 is exceptional at alerting you to the presence and location of magical traps. It doesn't tell you that what it detected was a trap, but it can alert the party that was otherwise using different exploration activities to look harder before proceeding down that corridor - granting every player in the party the opportunity to Seek, rather than only the ones that declared they were using the Search Exploration Activity
Yeah. As far as I know, there are zero magical hazards printed that can be found using Detect Magic. Because all of them have a detection proficiency of at least Trained.
So you can use Detect Magic to find traps, but only ones that the GM has created themselves using the Hazard Creation rules specifically for their game.
Magical hazards with a minimum proficiency rank cannot be found with detect magic at all.
Excellent contribution. I actually missed that line. Thanks!
Detect Magic does, indeed, not work for detect hazards or traps. Only items, objects, ongoing effects, and the like.
Personally I feel that is disappointing, but it is undeniably what the rules say.
I'm not sure if a Recall Knowledge check is needed in order to identify how to disable a hazard. But I don't see the rules for hazards specifying that it is needed.
The specific skill and DC required to disable a hazard are listed in the hazard's stat block. Like using Disable a Device, using these skills to disable a trap is a 2-action activity with the same degrees of success, though the activity might have different traits determined by the GM.But whether it uses Thievery or something else, a disable attempt costs two actions.
Ah dope, they errated that. Been bothering me for years, and I already was defaulting to two actions.
Yeah. As far as I know, there are zero magical hazards printed that can be found using Detect Magic. Because all of them have a detection proficiency of at least Trained.
So you can use Detect Magic to find traps, but only ones that the GM has created themselves using the Hazard Creation rules specifically for their game.
There are some, but so few for all intents and purposes you are correct. From the CRB we have the Armageddon Orb, which is literally a giant floating ball of roiling bloodand has stealth DC of 10 despite being level 23. Very much the exception and not the rule.
As to Des, thanks for the trip down memory lane. I still have mixed feelings about not having a Recall Knowledge to reveal Disable skills, especially for esoteric examples like using Performance as mentioned in that thread.