Dromaeosaur mount + support benefit

[HumbleGamer]

Assuming a dromaeosaur companion being used as a mount, how is going to work the support benefit for both the dromaeosaur? And as for the rider?

A couple of examples:

1) Mounted character with one enemy within their melee reach.
Given the support benefit, would move just the dromaeosaur or the mounted character as a whole?

2) Mounted character and 2 enemies within 10 feet from the dromaeosaur // mounted character.
Would the mounted character be able to strike in different positions? Or would just the dromaeosaur do so?

The point here is that there are 2 possible outcome.
D = Dromaeosaur
E = Enemy
R = Rider mounting the Dromaeosaur

The first would see a ninja dromaeosaur providing flanking to their rider ( DER ).
The other one would see the dromaosaur darting with the owner too ( either RE or ER ).

The latter would allows to strike from different positions, but unable to get flanking from the support benefit. The former would allow the rider to strike from their standard position, benefitting from the flanking, but not to strike from two different positions.

[breithauptclan]

First, Dromaeosaur doesn't have the Mount ability, so it can't both move and support on the same turn while it is carrying a rider.

Second, the Dromaeosaur doesn't actually move when using its support ability - at least not as far as game mechanics go. You can and probably should describe it as moving around, but description isn't mechanics.

The companion only 'counts as being' in its space or an empty space of your choice within 10 feet, and only for purposes of calculating flanking. No actual change of position happens, and no change of reach or threatened squares happens either.

[HumbleGamer]

I already knew all of that.

I was merely asking what about the support action with the given examples.

If the 2 provided ( which are two different situations) are not clear enough, I can try rephrasing both of them.

[breithauptclan]

Then, no. I don't understand what you are asking.

HumbleGamer wrote:

1) Mounted character with one enemy within their melee reach.

Given the support benefit, would move just the dromaeosaur or the mounted character as a whole?

Neither moves. The support ability does not move the dromaeosaur or the character that is riding it.

HumbleGamer wrote:

2) Mounted character and 2 enemies within 10 feet from the dromaeosaur // mounted character.

Would the mounted character be able to strike in different positions? Or would just the dromaeosaur do so?

Neither would be able to reach the enemy that is 10 feet away if all they have is weapons with the standard 5 foot reach.

Because in both cases, the Dromaeosaur's support ability does not actually move the animal companion. It just counts as being in a different location when calculating if it is flanking an enemy or not.

[HumbleGamer]

Rather than strictly read "move", just think of it as "darting". Which is what the support ability does.

A non mounted dromaeosaur might be considered in either their position or another one of their choice within 10 feet, for flanking and strike purposes.

It's straightforward.
Not a single doubt till now.

What if the dromaeosaur is being mounted by a character?

Would the dromaeosaur alone dart ( aka, the rider would be able to flank with the dromaeosaur) or would the dromaeosaur dart along their rider ( aka, the rider would be able to strike from their base position and/or the other one within 10 feet, but don't be unable to flank with the dromaeosaur using the support ability).

[breithauptclan]

HumbleGamer wrote:

Rather than strictly read "move", just think of it as "darting". Which is what the support ability does.

Yes. And 'darting' is not a move action.

HumbleGamer wrote:

A non mounted dromaeosaur might be considered in either their position or another one of their choice within 10 feet, for flanking and strike purposes.

No. Not for strike purposes. The support ability does not say that. Only for calculating flanking.

Dromaeosaur support ability wrote:

Your raptor constantly darts into flanking position. Until the start of your next turn, it counts as being in its space or an empty space of your choice within 10 feet when determining whether you and your companion are flanking; you can choose a different space for each of your attacks.

RAI line: "Your raptor constantly darts into flanking position." This gives the general narrative description of the ability.

"Until the start of your next turn, it counts as being in its space or an empty space of your choice within 10 feet when determining whether you and your companion are flanking;" The companion does not actually move mechanically. This is only for calculating flanking.

"you can choose a different space for each of your attacks." So the companion could flank two different enemies by being counted in flanking position against one of them when your character attacks that target, and then being counted in flanking position from a different square when your character attacks the other one.

But the Dromaeosaur still has an actual position that it remains in for the round.

[breithauptclan]

Let me see if I can illustrate this better on a map.

...

...

So if this is the position, with Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️ being you, 🟦 being your dromaeosaur companion, and ⭕ being an enemy, and ⚫ being a second enemy.

⬜⬜⬜⚫⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜🟦⭕⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜

If you have the companion use its support ability, then the dromaeosaur can be counted here 🔲 for purposes of flanking, allowing you to flank the red colored enemy.

⬜⬜⬜⚫⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜🔲⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜🟦⭕⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜

But your companion's location did not actually change. Your dromaeosaur is not flanked by those two enemies, and your dromaeosaur is not within a 5 foot reach of the brown enemy for attacks.

If the map is like this:
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜🟦⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⚫⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⭕⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜

Then you could have your companion be in both of these two locations so that you get flanking bonus when you attack both of the enemies.
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜🔲⬜🟦⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⚫⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⭕🔲⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜

But at that point, the dromaeosaur couldn't hit either of the enemies with a 5 foot reach attack.

Edit: apparently my first colored unicode squares didn't work.

[HumbleGamer]

breithauptclan wrote:

RAI line: "Your raptor constantly darts into flanking position." This gives the general narrative description of the ability.

"Until the start of your next turn, it counts as being in its space or an empty space of your choice within 10 feet when determining whether you and your companion are flanking;" The companion does not actually move mechanically. This is only for calculating flanking.

"you can choose a different space for each of your attacks." So the companion could flank two different enemies by being counted in flanking position against one of them when your character attacks that target, and then being counted in flanking position from a different square when your character attacks the other one.

But the Dromaeosaur still has an actual position that it remains in for the round.

Right, I did extrapolate the last part of the sentence "you can choose a different space for each of your attacks.", and thought I'd able to make attacks as the dromaeosaur were in either spaces.

Apart from that, I still don't understand how do you consider this working if the dromaeosaur is being ridden.

I know that given me and the dromaeosaur in 2 different spots, the dromaeosaur might provide flank to me with both enemies.

D = Dromaeosaur & darting dromaeosaur
X = Empty Space
E = Enemy
P = PC

DXD
XEE
XXP

But what if P and D were the same?

"darting" means quickly rushes/moves ( even if it's not a move action. it resembles the raptor darting through the battlefield, being fast enough to be in 2 positions at once ), but if the raptor were to dart through the battlefield, to me it's obvious so would do its rider.

D = Darting mounted dromaosaur
X = Empty Space
E = Enemy
P = PC

XXD
XEE
XXP

So, it could be either P or D, but not P "and" D. Meaning the mounted character couldn't be able to flank with the dromaeosaur, because the latter won't be able to use the support without considering its rider.

Or at least, I think it's correct this way ( Or maybe the dromaeosaur simply project themselves in the D, which they stand with the rider on the P, being able somehow to flank. Somehow means I don't know why, but given dragons and fireballs and deitis, it might end up being that way because reasons/mechanics/raw ).

[breithauptclan]

As for what happens with the support ability while being ridden - it isn't entirely clear. I can see two rulings.

One is that the rider is also darting around and being in that position while calculating flanking. Which means that you couldn't actually be in flanking position since both of you are calculating your flanking position from the same square. This is the one that makes the most sense narratively. But it has mechanics and balance problems.

The other is that only the companion has the alternate position to use for calculating flanking. Which is what the rule literally says. But this has narrative problems of 'how does the dromaeosaur end up in a different position - even briefly - from where its mounted rider is?' But it does at least still allow you to use your companion's support ability.

[HumbleGamer]

breithauptclan wrote:

As for what happens with the support ability while being ridden - it isn't entirely clear. I can see two rulings.

One is that the rider is also darting around and being in that position while calculating flanking. Which means that you couldn't actually be in flanking position since both of you are calculating your flanking position from the same square. This is the one that makes the most sense narratively. But it has mechanics and balance problems.

The other is that only the companion has the alternate position to use for calculating flanking. Which is what the rule literally says. But this has narrative problems of 'how does the dromaeosaur end up in a different position - even briefly - from where its mounted rider is?' But it does at least still allow you to use your companion's support ability.

Yeah I see that exactly as you do.

I'd probably god with the former even if it's less ( I think ) powerful compared to the latter, but I wonder what would the majority of the players do.

ps: Thanks for taking time making the examples with tokens! Really appreciated and extremely clear!

[breithauptclan]

HumbleGamer wrote:

ps: Thanks for taking time making the examples with tokens! Really appreciated and extremely clear!

Yeah, no problem. I don't mind being told that I am wrong, but I don't like being misunderstood and confusing people.

HumbleGamer wrote:

I'd probably god with the former even if it's less ( I think ) powerful compared to the latter, but I wonder what would the majority of the players do.

Personally I go with the mechanics. I don't mind if the narrative description doesn't completely match the mechanics, and I don't like penalizing players for a flavor choice.