One player's barbarian now has Shield Master, dual-wields shields, and has Shield Slam (among other feats).
He naturally wants to have this explosive ability to bash everyone away in all directions with a full attack (he also has the Crowdfighting urban barbarian power) and he wants to do full attacks with two shields (his feat choices are all in service of this), bashing everyone away with shield bashes and free bull rushes from both shields.
Of course he won't be moving with the bull-rushed opponents because he's doing a full attack.
But the question becomes this. How would you rule the situation:
He has a Small or even tiny creature (let's say a stirge) adjacent to him. He does a Shield Slam, rolling twenty feet of bull rush. He declines to move with the bull rush (he has other opponents to hit, and this was his first attack of a full attack). Directly behind the stirge is a fire giant, size Large.
By the rules, he's allowed to do a combat maneuver check (at -4) on that giant, to have it also affected by the bull rush. But he never moves adjacent to it; the only thing hitting the giant is the Tiny stirge.
Would you rule the giant could be knocked back by the bull rush in this scenario? Is there a rule I missed that disallows it?
Also, assuming no size issue, let's suppose he shield-slams a hobgoblin and it flies back five feet and then impacts another hobgoblin. When rolling CMB against this second hobgoblin, what modifiers does he get to this roll beyond the -4?
- The attack bonus for his shield (he has the feat allowing the enhancement bonus on the shield to add to his attacks)?
- His increased strength from raging?
- Bless? Prayer? Heroism? (Probably all of those.)
- His additional bonuses (and penalties) to hit from rage-related feats?
- Weapon focus for his shield, which was the source of the original attack and bull rush, but which is nowhere near the second target?
- His penalty to hit from Power Attack?
- His penalty from Two-Weapon Fighting?
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From what I get the RAw is that the PC makes a new bull rush with the-4 penalty. Apparently, the stirge carries all the strength of the Bull rush.
The only thing that can hint at something different is this:
Quote: You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you feel that the Bull rushed creature is what carries the moment of the attack you could think that the creature's size matters.
I think it is something you need to decide at your table. It is more a matter of what breaks the fun of the game for your group than a matter of rules.
Relevant rule that I'm trying to clarify for the second case:
Quote: Combat Maneuver: Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. and
Quote: Shield Slam: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Chapter 8). ... You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn. (I assume that, as with most feats, the use of the shield slam is optional, and the feat owner can choose not to knock them back.)
As a houserule/gm ruling, I would have them roll again with all the same modifiers as their initial bull rush attack (i.e. same as their attack roll's modifiers) with a -4 on top.
RAW though, they roll as if making a bull rush attempt against the stirge, except that they also have a -4. This means no TWF penalty, but everything else you've listed would apply.
willuwontu wrote: As a houserule/gm ruling, I would have them roll again with all the same modifiers as their initial bull rush attack (i.e. same as their attack roll's modifiers) with a -4 on top.
RAW though, they roll as if making a bull rush attempt against the stirge, except that they also have a -4. This means no TWF penalty, but everything else you've listed would apply.
TWF is a penalty that lasts for his full attack, the Bull is part of his full attack, it isn't a separate action. He would keep all his bonuses and penalties from the initial attack.
CRB wrote: Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
One last question for those who have long familiarity with the rules and metarule-intent...
Disarm and Trip can be done "in place of a melee attack", and as such, presumably, if done as the second or third or fourth attack within a full attack, they take a -5/-10/-15 as appropriate - that seems a pretty clear implication/deduction from the rules.
Would that apply to the bull rush CMB roll made as part of Shield Slam if the slammed opponent is knocked back into another creature?
So for example: our 11th level urban barbarian (BAB 11, has TWF, Shield Mastery, Crowdfighting, Shield Slam, WF: Shield and a bunch of other feats and rage powers. Attack rolls with the primary-weapon shield while raging and Power Attacking in a crowd are +24/+19/+14, CMB while raging is also +24 when using a shield to do a maneuver, because same bonuses) does a full attack, and on the second attack (rolled at +19) beats the opponent's CMD by 10, knocking him back 15 feet; that opponent impacts another opponent 5 feet away; the barbarian rolls a CMB to knock that other opponent back. I would expect to rule that roll is +15 -- that is, +24 CMB, -5 for it being the second attack, -4 for bull rush into secondary opponent.
Does that sound like the right adjustment for CMB? (It gets really wacky since that +24 includes the +1 for Crowdfighting but the secondary opponent isn't adjacent to him - but for simplicity I'm just keeping all the bonuses and penalties. The thing I'm checking for is whether imposing that -5 is expected by the rules.)
The "follow up" slam that happens when an opponent is knocked back into another creature is part of the same attack, so it has the same modifier for iterative attacks. If it is the first iterative attack it is 0, if it is the second it is -5, and so on.
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