Defining "physical attacks"

[Yekrep]

What consitutes a "physical attack"?

My reading leads me to believe that the term refers to any attack that is made by a physical means (perhaps in contrast to psychic, mental, incorporeal, magical, etc), or as a catchall for melee and ranged attacks.

My peers seem to believe that any attack that causes physical damage is a physical attack, (even if it is a spell like telekinetic projectile).

This second interpretation gives me some trouble. It leads to some weird edge cases where if, for example, you roll low on a damage die and have a negative modifier, your physical damage becomes 0 and your attack ceases to be a "physical attack".

Additionally my peers also have the opinion that any rider effects, such as a flaming rune, are not part of the physical attack.

I find this also troubling. A red hot fire poker that might normally deal a bit of piercing and a bit of fire damage is in a wierd limbo where you can shield block it and prevent it from stabbing you but it still burns you.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Guntermench]

Hardness doesn't make a distinction on damage type, so I've always gone with an attack roll that has physical damage as one of the types, and it affects everything involved in that attack.

Also acceptable would be any physical thing doing the attack, so you can include stuff like Rain of Embers stance that claws at you, but it's fire.

Unfortunately as you've no doubt seen "physical attack" itself isn't described anywhere.

[Tarpeius]

We actually got indirect clarification on this:

Quote:

Pages 266 (Clarification): Can I use Shield Block if I take physical damage that didn't come from an attack?

Shield Block can only be used against physical damage from attacks, since non-attack effects can't trigger the Shield Block. For instance, if you walk over a square of hazardous terrain that deals piercing damage to you, having your shield raised doesn't help you, nor does it help if you need to make a Reflex save against a spell that deals bludgeoning damage. Some abilities let you use Shield Block with other triggers, as seen in the shield spell and the fighter's Reflexive Shield feat, but these exceptions are noted. Also note the 4th printing errata to spellguard shield (page 588) allows it to apply in this way.

So a "physical attack" is simply physical damage from any attack action.

[breithauptclan]

There are still some gray areas involved. For example Spiritual Weapon which may not be the best example because it deals Force damage not a physical damage type. But it is a spell that makes a Strike. So simply saying that any Strike action is a physical attack has some loopholes.

[Tarpeius]

breithauptclan wrote:

There are still some gray areas involved. For example Spiritual Weapon which may not be the best example because it deals Force damage not a physical damage type. But it is a spell that makes a Strike. So simply saying that any Strike action is a physical attack has some loopholes.

The clarification does not say that.

[breithauptclan]

The clarification does its best. But it is a complicated idea and involves a lot of different things - not the least of which is the Attack trait problem.

The clarification literally says 'physical damage from attacks' - which would include the bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage from Telekinetic Projectile since that spell has the Attack trait. But it doesn't include the bludgeoning or piercing damage from Telekinetic Rend because that spell doesn't have the Attack trait.

If we instead interpret that to mean any Strike actions, that has two problems. One there are sometimes physical non-spell damage effects that don't involve the Strike action that probably should be included - and two there are spells like Hand of the Apprentice that says 'you deal damage as though you had hit with a Strike' that might or might not be appropriate to shield block against.

So how about non-spell effects that cause physical damage? Well, now it doesn't prevent those things that the clarification specifically said don't work to shield block such as falling damage or hazardous terrain.

But in any case, the clarification still leaves a bit of gray area that will need further GM adjudication.

[Baarogue]

You're overthinking it again breith

>So simply saying that any Strike action is a physical attack has some loopholes.
Tarpeius didn't say that. Neither did the clarification they quoted. You're the first person in the thread to suggest it and then claim it's got loopholes. Yes, it does. That's why that's not the rule

>TK Projectile
Yes, that is an attack that deals physical damage. According to the clarification it qualifies for Shield Block

>TK Rend
Correct, this doesn't have the attack trait so it doesn't qualify. Note it doesn't even qualify for Reflexive Shield, because it's a Fort save. You're not just saving to dodge one or a few projectiles. You're having to endure a concerted TK assault. I picture it like a localized sandstorm

>If we instead interpret that to mean any Strike actions,
We're not

>Hand of the Apprentice*
It qualifies for Shield Block because the spell is an attack that deals physical damage unless your weapon somehow would not deal physical damage with a Strike. Completely appropriate in every circumstance I can think of

*fun aside: Hand of the Apprentice doesn't apply Deadly or Fatal on a critical success. "On a critical success, you deal double damage, and you add the weapon's critical specialization effect." It doesn't say "you deal damage as if you crit with a melee Strike."

and

Spell Attacks, CR 305 wrote:

Spell attacks don’t deal any damage beyond what’s listed in the spell description.

[Yekrep]

About that clarification... that was the subject of a lot of drama for me. I am of the opinion that the wording is specific to the context of the question.

"Shield Block can only be used against physical damage from attacks, since non-attack effects can't trigger the Shield Block."

is in the context of

"Can I use Shield Block if I take physical damage that didn't come from an attack?"

The word "only" is modifying "attacks" not "physical". The clarification goes on to describe ways to allow shield block to work with non-attack sources of damage, mentioning physical damage not because it is important to the ruling, but rather because the question referenced it.

It's like if I called an Italian diner and ask
"Do you sell any pizza without crust?"
And they say "We only sell pizza with crust."
That doesn't mean they don't sell pasta too, even though they literally said "we only sell pizza"

Does that make sense?

[Baarogue]

Yes, personally I run it how Guntermench described above, but there will always be those who insist only physical damage can be reduced by shield block

[Yekrep]

Baarogue wrote:

Yes, personally I run it how Guntermench described above, but there will always be those who insist only physical damage can be reduced by shield block

Thank you. I have 1 more question regarding this topic. How do we determine which damage is blocked if the damage is of multiple types?

IE a troll with a shield blocks all but 1 damage from an attack from a lit torch. Does the troll regenerate?

[breithauptclan]

*shrugs*

I actually have no idea on that.

[Guntermench]

I make it easy and just go in order of damage types listed.

[Baarogue]

Same here, starting with the physical damage

[Cordell Kintner]

Shield Block shouldn't be able to block energy damage, so the Shield Block would block all physical damage, but the Fire would get through. Certain shields let you block energy attacks, like the Dragonslayer's Shield.

If you were hit by a Strike with a Flaming rune, your Red Dragonslayer's Shield would resist both the physical and fire damage. So if you're hit with 6 Slashing and 6 Fire, you would resist 6 Slashing and 2 Fire from Harness, then the Resist 10 would block the remaining 4 Fire, thus taking no damage.

If it were a Blue Dragonslayer's Shield however, you would only block the 6 slashing and the 6 Fire would make it through to you.

[Yekrep]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

Shield Block shouldn't be able to block energy damage, so the Shield Block would block all physical damage, but the Fire would get through. Certain shields let you block energy attacks, like the Dragonslayer's Shield.

If you were hit by a Strike with a Flaming rune, your Red Dragonslayer's Shield would resist both the physical and fire damage. So if you're hit with 6 Slashing and 6 Fire, you would resist 6 Slashing and 2 Fire from Harness, then the Resist 10 would block the remaining 4 Fire, thus taking no damage.

If it were a Blue Dragonslayer's Shield however, you would only block the 6 slashing and the 6 Fire would make it through to you.

Hardness is not resistance though. The fact that the item has resistance kinda lends itself to the fact that shields can in fact block energy damage. The item description says it can prevent 18 energy damage using 8 hardness and 10 resistance.

[Grimmerling]

By the way, is there any RAW justification for denying Shield Block against a critical Trip success, as it is an Attack, dealing physical damage? Declaring it „damage by hazardous terrain“ does stand on shaky ground, but is the best I can think of.

[Cordell Kintner]

Yekrep wrote:

Cordell Kintner wrote:

Shield Block shouldn't be able to block energy damage, so the Shield Block would block all physical damage, but the Fire would get through. Certain shields let you block energy attacks, like the Dragonslayer's Shield.

If you were hit by a Strike with a Flaming rune, your Red Dragonslayer's Shield would resist both the physical and fire damage. So if you're hit with 6 Slashing and 6 Fire, you would resist 6 Slashing and 2 Fire from Harness, then the Resist 10 would block the remaining 4 Fire, thus taking no damage.

If it were a Blue Dragonslayer's Shield however, you would only block the 6 slashing and the 6 Fire would make it through to you.

Hardness is not resistance though. The fact that the item has resistance kinda lends itself to the fact that shields can in fact block energy damage. The item description says it can prevent 18 energy damage using 8 hardness and 10 resistance.

The shield also explicitly says that it can block that type of energy, meaning that it's not a normal thing shields can do.

[Gortle]

Grimmerling wrote:

By the way, is there any RAW justification for denying Shield Block against a critical Trip success, as it is an Attack, dealing physical damage? Declaring it „damage by hazardous terrain“ does stand on shaky ground, but is the best I can think of.

Technically you have a point.

The physical damage is really a side effect. Does a shield stop what is essentially a type of falling damage? Can you block the ground? I wouldn't allow it.

Then there is timing. You are already at damage dealing then you want to rewind to the hit stage.

[Yekrep]

Cordell Kintner wrote:

The shield also explicitly says that it can block that type of energy, meaning that it's not a normal thing shields can do.

Well, not exactly. It says "you can use shield block against attacks that deal that type of damage". The clause opens the door to blocking non-physical attacks if they deal the corresponding damage (which I assume includes thing such as spell attacks, but we don't have a definition of physical attacks). Things like ray of frost which would probably not be considered a "physical attack" thus become blockable. The way I see it, ordinary shields can block energy, dragonslayer shields can do what ordinary shields do, plus resist energy and block non-physical sources of energy such as spells.

[Baarogue]

Gortle wrote:

Grimmerling wrote:

By the way, is there any RAW justification for denying Shield Block against a critical Trip success, as it is an Attack, dealing physical damage? Declaring it „damage by hazardous terrain“ does stand on shaky ground, but is the best I can think of.

Technically you have a point.

The physical damage is really a side effect. Does a shield stop what is essentially a type of falling damage? Can you block the ground? I wouldn't allow it.

Then there is timing. You are already at damage dealing then you want to rewind to the hit stage.

Shield Block takes place at the damage stage. You're thinking of Reactive Shield