Critical Specialization Effect stacking rules

[Tomsan]

Hey,

I'd like to get clarification on Critical Specialization Effect stacking rules. On one hand we have a rule which says that same effect cannot apply twice. On the other hand some of the effects (i.e. Critical Fusion or Lavasoul) say directly that you need to choose one effect.
And then we have things like Accursed Touch/Bloodletting Claws which applies additional persisted damage while fist (brawling group) also has its own Critical Specialization Effect (apply slow 1).

Should I count these as same effect (as in Critical Specialization Effect being a type of effect)?
Or do we count each type(source) of Critical Specialization Effect as separate effect (to prevent things like Critical Brutality and Dwarven Weapon Cunning for pick wielding barbarian - both Critical Brutality and Dwarven Weapon Cunning apply to same effect - pick Critical Specialization)?

[Blave]

Those are entirely seperate effects. A character with no access to critical specilization would still get those effects, just like he would still get extra damage on crit from a deadly or fatal weapon.

[Tomsan]

So in case of a character that has access to both - Accursed Touch and somehow unlocked brawling Critical Specialization Effect (i.e. mummy monk with Brawling Focus) a critical hit should apply persistent damage and stupefied 1 from Accursed Touch and force enemy to fortitude save and apply slowed 1 (from brawling group Critical Specialization Effect)?

[Blave]

Oh, sorry. I was thinking of entirely different feats. My bad. The two you mention are in fact Critical Specializations and NOT separate.

I don't think the rules state how to handle cases with multiple potential Critical Specilization effects. I don't think you're supposed to apply multiple Critical Specilizations to the same attack. Otherwise they could simple not say those effects are Critical Specilizations at all.

I would most likely just let the player choose which to apply.

[Tomsan]

Yeah it't not stated directly anywhere.
I can think of few examples of possible interactions

1. Dwarven barbarian with pick and Critical Brutality and Dwarven Weapon Cunning both feats unlock pick Critical Specialization. It's definitely the same effect therefore they would not stack
2. Accursed Touch and Brawling Crit Spec. Depending if we go with route that Critical Specialization Effect is the effect they will not stack or if we interpret it as each Critical Specialization is its own effect they should stack

I would probably assume the case where all Critical Specialization Effects are same effect and dont stack, but then we have things such as
- Lavasoul which directly specifies that

Quote:

Instead of the normal critical specialization effect, the target takes 1d6 persistent fire damage; you gain a bonus on this persistent damage equal to your item bonus to attack rolls on unarmed attacks.

- Deadly Butterfly

Quote:

You gain access to the butterfly sword's critical specialization effect. If you already had access to the critical specialization effect or you gain the effect at a later time, you also gain the critical specialization effect for knives when you critically hit with a butterfly sword. You can benefit from only one critical specialization effect at a time.

Both of which say you either replace critical specialization (Lavasoul) or have to pick one of them (sword or knife for Deadly Butterfly)

[Blave]

But if feats like Accursed Touch don't replace the any other Criticla Specilaizaton, then why even say they are Critical Specilization at all? That sentence in the description would have no effect if it would just stack with all other CritSpecs.

[Tomsan]

Agree, that would be my first intuition as well. Honestly I was hoping that it was mentioned/clarified somewhere before. Like gunslinger's reload working with capacity weapons for example.

[breithauptclan]

I thought there was a rule somewhere that you could only apply one critical specialization effect to any attack if you happened to have more than one. But I am not finding it currently.

[Jared Walter 356]

Personally, I think the rules on duplicate effects covers this CR443:
and disallows multiple versions of the critical specialization

Duplicate Effects
When you’re affected by the same thing multiple times, only one instance applies...