| Artificial 20 |
Chart Caster Mesmerist Archetype.
A chart caster cannot implant tricks as a standard action. Instead, he can spend 5 minutes to implant multiple tricks in a single willing target. The number of tricks he can implant per day is unchanged from the regular mesmerist class, but he can apply as many of those tricks as he chooses on a single use of this ability.
If implanting tricks in himself, the caster merely spends 5 minutes in contemplation; otherwise, he consults star charts while ritually asking the creature questions, and still must touch them to do so. At 1st level, he can select multiple instances of the same trick to implant in a single subject. At 5th level, a chart caster can implant two different subjects with multiple instances of one trick each and can choose a different trick for each subject. The number of additional subjects increases by one for every 4 mesmerist levels he has beyond 5th.
Using this ability again on an existing subject or to implant any trick on a new subject ends all previously implanted tricks. The caster can trigger only one instance of the same trick on a given subject per round.
This alters mesmerist tricks and manifold tricks.
You can adjust a mesmerist trick that has already been implanted in a creature.
Prerequisites: Mesmerist tricks class feature.
Benefit: Whenever you implant a mesmerist trick in a target, you can designate that trick as a swap trick. The implanted mesmerist trick functions as normal, except you can trigger the swap trick as a standard action by touching the target. When the swap trick is triggered in this manner, the target “loses” the swap trick and instead becomes implanted with any one mesmerist trick that you know in its place. Implanting a mesmerist trick in a target in this manner doesn’t count against your number of daily uses of the mesmerist trick class feature.
I believe that this archetype with this feat can do the following:
- Take 5 minutes to implant multiple instances of the same trick in a willing target (or multiple willing targets at higher levels) using Subject of the Stars, and designate all of these tricks as swap tricks using Swap Trick. This is still limited to their total daily ises of tricks, of course
- Take some standard actions to swap out some of the individual instances of identical tricks for other tricks the chart caster knows, which is the explicit and full purpose of the Swap Trick feat
- Effectively be able to customise any assortment of known tricks in one (and later a few) allies
Can anyone else confirm or dispute that the combination works as such? I'm not worried about power balance, this is for a support NPC, I just want to ensure that it functions properly by the rules.
Diego Rossi
|
Prerequisites: Mesmerist tricks class feature.
Subject of the Stars (Su)
...
This alters mesmerist tricks and manifold tricks.
The "Mesmerist tricks class feature" has been altered and remained "Subject of the Stars". The Chart Caster lacks the required feature and can't take the Swap Trick feat.
| Artificial 20 |
That is an extremely good point, thank you for catching that Diego.
I went searching for the FAQ, which I managed to find here.
To quote the meat of it:
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)
So the renaming part isn't essential. The ability would either have to:
- Say it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability
- Require you to make a specific choice for the standard ability
It definitely doesn't do the second. It doesn't do the first explicitly, but references the base mesmerist feature: "The number of tricks he can implant per day is unchanged from the regular mesmerist class" and in a few other bits. It feels like an edge case... I'm not sure how it falls.
| willuwontu |
Quote:Prerequisites: Mesmerist tricks class feature.Quote:The "Mesmerist tricks class feature" has been altered and remained "Subject of the Stars". The Chart Caster lacks the required feature and can't take the Swap Trick feat.Subject of the Stars (Su)
...
This alters mesmerist tricks and manifold tricks.
Altering the ability still counts as having that ability, it's only when the ability is removed that you no longer count as having it. So they still qualify for the feat.
| willuwontu |
I went searching for the FAQ, which I managed to find here.
Note that that FAQ doesn't apply, as the ability doesn't replace the mesmerist tricks class feature, and only alters it. For an an example of how ability replacements are worded, look further down in the archetype at Feign Destiny.
This replaces touch treatment.
Diego Rossi
|
A mesmerist can create hypnotic bonds with his allies, implanting magical suggestions in their minds that he can later activate. Each day, he can implant a number of these tricks equal to 1/2 his mesmerist level (minimum 1) plus his Charisma bonus (if any). He can have only one trick implanted at a given time, and implanting a new trick ends the previous one (the mesmerist still loses the use of this ability he spent on the previous trick).
To implant a trick, the mesmerist must take a standard action and either touch a willing creature or implant the trick in himself. A creature can be the subject of only one mesmerist trick at a time. The mesmerist can activate the trick as a free action when a triggering condition is met (as defined in the trick’s description), even if it isn’t his turn. The subject must be within medium range (100 feet + 10 feet per level) for the mesmerist to trigger the trick. The mesmerist monitors for the trick’s triggering condition through a subtle telepathic connection, so he doesn’t need line of sight to trigger it—but anything that blocks telepathic contact prevents him from triggering tricks. An implanted trick lasts until the next time the mesmerist regains his spells.
Once triggered, a trick is no longer implanted, and can’t be triggered again until the mesmerist implants the trick again. The duration of the effect caused by triggering a trick is either instantaneous or appears in the trick’s entry. The DC for any mesmerist trick or masterful trick that requires a saving throw or skill check is 10 + 1/2 the mesmerist’s level + the mesmerist’s Charisma modifier.
The mesmerist knows one trick at 1st level, and learns another trick at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter (to a maximum of 11 tricks at 20th level). Each daily use of mesmerist tricks can be used to implant any trick the mesmerist knows. Unless specifically noted in the mesmerist trick’s description, a mesmerist can’t choose a particular trick more than once.
A chart caster cannot implant tricks as a standard action. Instead, he can spend 5 minutes to implant multiple tricks in a single willing target. The number of tricks he can implant per day is unchanged from the regular mesmerist class, but he can apply as many of those tricks as he chooses on a single use of this ability.
If implanting tricks in himself, the caster merely spends 5 minutes in contemplation; otherwise, he consults star charts while ritually asking the creature questions, and still must touch them to do so. At 1st level, he can select multiple instances of the same trick to implant in a single subject. At 5th level, a chart caster can implant two different subjects with multiple instances of one trick each and can choose a different trick for each subject. The number of additional subjects increases by one for every 4 mesmerist levels he has beyond 5th.
Using this ability again on an existing subject or to implant any trick on a new subject ends all previously implanted tricks. The caster can trigger only one instance of the same trick on a given subject per round.
This alters mesmerist tricks and manifold tricks.
Changes:
1) 1 trick in each target Vs several tricks in the same target.2) Standard action Vs. 5 minutes.
If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability
It doesn't say it works as the standard ability, actually, it works differently from the standard ability. So, it isn't the same ability.
If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability.
It doesn't require you to make a choice from those available for the standard ability, so, again, it doesn't count as the standard ability.
Referencing the standard ability for parts of how it works isn't enough to make it the standard ability.
Diego Rossi
|
More important, we aren't speaking of an archetype feature, but of a feat prerequisite:
Prerequisite: A minimum ability score, another feat or feats, a minimum base attack bonus, a minimum number of ranks in one or more skills, or anything else required in order to take the feat. This entry is absent if a feat has no prerequisite. A feat may have more than one prerequisite.
When do I count as having a class feature?
You have a class feature when your class description tells you you gain that class feature, generally based on your level in that class (and perhaps altered by factors, see below).
If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces that class feature, you do not have that class feature. For example, if your archetype replaces a rogue's sneak attack, you no longer have the sneak attack class feature (whether a requirement is as general as "sneak attack" or as specific as "sneak attack +1d6," you do not qualify for it).
If you have an archetype or other rules element that replaces part of a scaling class feature, or delays when you get that class feature, you do not have that class feature until you actually gain that class feature.
So:
1) You don't have the original class feature;2) You have a modified and renamed variant of it.
Now SKR test:
It walks as a duck and quack as a duck?
No.
The Subject of the Stars has a big change. It requires 5 minutes to implant a trick.
The feat works with an ability that requires a standard action to implant a trick and allows you to implant a swap trick and then change it with another standard action.
Essentially it will allow you to bypass the 5 minutes to implant a trick limitation. But Subject of the Stars explicitly says "A chart caster cannot implant tricks as a standard action. Instead, he can spend 5 minutes to implant multiple tricks in a single willing target".
It is a neat idea, but it is very, very against the changes made to the Mesmerist Trick.
| willuwontu |
It doesn't say it works as the standard ability, actually, it works differently from the standard ability. So, it isn't the same ability.
Again, that is incorrect, altering an ability means that they keep it.
Now SKR test:
Doesn't apply, they still have the ability.